[SI-LIST] Re: WG: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES

  • From: Siddharth Rajagopalan <maxsidhu@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 17:12:54 +0530

hi gert,
how can you enter the Uncorrelated bounded high probability jitter(UBHPJ)
in RJ?? RJ by definition is an unbounded jitter. correct me if i am wrong.
Regards,
Siddharth Rajagopalan
Signal integrity engineer,
Cisco systems
Mobile: +91 725 9277122
direct: +91 8044266229
official email: sidrajag@xxxxxxxxx




On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Havermann, Gert <Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx
> wrote:

> Resent
>
> Von: Havermann, Gert
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 12:50
> An: 'Hirshtal Itzhak'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Betreff: AW: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
>
> Hi Itzhak,
>
> I think both isn't absolutely correct. The right in the definition of
> total Chip jitter is, it contains all Jitter aspects including ISI within
> the chip and package. You Channel will have additional ISI, but that's not
> part of the transmitter specification (or at least shouldn't be).
> As you know, I'm not using Hyperlynx. ADS asks for DCD, Clock DCD, PJ (in
> amplitude and frequency) and RJ. I usually take the DCD from the datasheet,
> and put the UBHPJ into RJ and then set PJ in a way that my transmit Eye
> shows the Total Jitter. This isn't 100% correct, but it worked well in the
> past.
>
> BR
> Gert
>
> Von: Hirshtal Itzhak [mailto:ihirshtal@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 12:14
> An: Havermann, Gert; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Betreff: RE: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
>
> Hi again,
>
> Let me try to focus on a certain aspect of my problem:
>
> The sRIO Level II spec details the Tx Jitter values as follows:
>
> Eye Mask = 125mV
>
> Uncorrelated Bounded High Probability Jitter = 0.15UI ptp
>
> Duty Cycle Distortion = 0.05UI ptp
>
> Total Jitter = 0.30UI ptp
>
> The question is: what do these parameters mean?
>
> My understanding: The Transmitter device maximum allowed DCD & jitter.
>
> What the device vendor seems to tell me: The maximum actual DCD & jitter
> present on the Transmitter pins due to both internal jitter generation and
> channel ISI.
>
> So my 1st question is - which is correct?
>
> Then, if the 1st interpretation is true, it seems I need to somehow enter
> all of the above detailed parameters to my simulation transmitter model,
> shouldn't I?
>
> On the other hand, if the 2nd interpretation is true, then it seems I have
> to ask the device vendor to tell me what's the actual jitter generated by
> the device itself, shouldn't I?
>
> Thanks for your help on this matter!
>
> Itzhak Hirshtal
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3, D-32339
> Espelkamp; Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRB
> 8808; Vertretungsberechtige Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Kfm. Edgar-Peter Düning,
> Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 3:00 PM
> To: Hirshtal Itzhak; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps
> SERDES
>
> Hi Itzhak,
>
> Quite honestly I don't know hyperlinx in that detail. You should ask the
> support or maybe some helpfiles to find out which type of Jitter has to be
> used.
>
> You could try to add one jitter component at a time and measure the jitter
> in the simulation result to check if the input Jitter equals the output
> Jitter. This way you can find out which parameter to change in which way.
>
> BR
> Gert
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3, D-32339
> Espelkamp; Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRB
> 8808; Vertretungsberechtige Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Kfm. Edgar-Peter Düning,
> Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Hirshtal Itzhak [mailto:ihirshtal@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juni 2013 13:36
> An: Havermann, Gert; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Betreff: RE: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
>
> Hi Gert,
>
> I did exactly that!!
> The question was: Am I correct in doing so?
> And what about the non-random jitter? Did I set it up correctly?
>
> Also, I've heard an opinion saying I shouldn't set these jitter values at
> all, but take instead the jitter specification of the Transmitter Reference
> Clock! Is that true?
>
> Regards
> Itzhak
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:58 PM
> To: Hirshtal Itzhak; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps
> SERDES
>
> The Jitter Values can be given in either "RMS" or "Peak to Peak". Check
> what kind of input the simulator engine needs, and if it agrees to the
> datasheet numbers you punched in. If simulator uses RMS and Datasheet gives
> P2P, then you need to convert the jitter values using a BER based
> conversion table.
>
> BR
> Gert
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3, D-32339
> Espelkamp; Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRB
> 8808; Vertretungsberechtige Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Kfm. Edgar-Peter Düning,
> Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Im Auftrag von Hirshtal Itzhak
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juni 2013 11:57
> An: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Betreff: [SI-LIST] Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
>
> Hello all,
> I have a question relating to the proper use of jitter in hi-speed
> simulations of several Gbps pairs.
>
> I've been using HyperLynx IBIS-AMI Channel Analysis tool in order to
> simulate 5Gbps channels going from one PCB to another one through a
> motherboard.
> I use IBIS-AMI models from the Tx/Rx vendors and S-Parameter models for
> the connectors involved.
>
> The main problem for me is understanding how to use the jitter
> specification for the transmitter.
>
> The transmitter data sheet defines miscellaneous Near-End (Tx) Template
> Intervals, part of which are jitter intervals, which include T_UBHPJ
> (Uncorrelated Bounded High Probability Jitter) of 0.15UIptp, T_DCD
> (Duty-Cycle Distortion) of 0.05UIptp and T_TJ (Total Jitter) of 0.30UIptp.
>
> I have been using these parameters as follows inside the simulation tool
> setup:
>
> -          Dual Dirac Jitter: 1st  mean = -0.1UI, 2nd mean = +0.1UI
> (accounting approximately for the sum of the 1st 2 jitter parameters, which
> equals 0.2UI)
> -          Sigma of Random Jitter = 0.01UI, which results from subtracting
> the1st 2 parameters from the total jitter (yielding 0.1UI) and dividing the
> result by 14 (the ratio [for BER of 10**(-12)] between peak-to-peak jitter
> and Sigma. I rounded the final result up a little to get 0.01UI.
>
> So, to conclude: Have I used the simulation tool's jitter setup correctly
> to account for the Tx jitter definitions? Because when I do that, I get a
> closed eye (relative to the Rx eye-mask spec). Without these jitter
> elements the eye is completely open!
>
> Also, what BER ratio should I use for the Sigma definition? Should it be
> according to the desired BER on the receiver?
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Itzhak Hirshtal
> Elta
> The information contained in this communication is proprietary to Israel
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>
>
>
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