Sorry if it seemed like I made some kind of blanket statement that altering the image plane never makes a difference in crosstalk. I meant to apply the statement only for this particular case - ground plane under the gold fingers of an FBD connector. Before performing the measurements, I wouldn't have bet tons of money that the crosstalk to the other side of the connector wouldn't increase appreciably (though I didn't think it would). My measurements showed it didn't. I want to also note that I am not responsible for the generic FBD recommendation to cut back those fingers. My specific area of interest involved a connector we enabled for Logic Analyzers. I assume, however, that the folks responsible for the generic solution had similar experience to mine. I offered an affirmation to the original question/answer based on similar personal experience. I believe the reason we don't see much increase in crosstalk is due to the fact that: 1) the connector makes contact above where the ground plane is trimmed back, 2) the majority of the return current at this point is through the coplanar fingers, and 3) the path was already so disrupted... Mostly conjecture, based on trying to "Be the signal" (as Eric would say - maybe his next book will be "The inner game of S.I."?). Jeff Loyer -----Original Message----- From: steve weir [mailto:weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:58 AM To: Loyer, Jeff; kalevi@xxxxxxxxxx; Cortex.Chen@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: To remove reference planes under the gold finger areas Jeff, I agree that big pads translate to significant capacitance and=20 without compensation, impedance dips. But I am quite wary of your blanket=20 statement declaring no increase in crosstalk when we alter the image=20 plane. To believe that, I would have to think either that there is another=20 path(s) back to the original return that does not involve nearby signal=20 traces, or that the path was already so badly disrutpted by other problems=20 that the crosstalk just can't get much worse. Do you see something different? Steve. At 02:49 PM 6/15/2005 -0700, Loyer, Jeff wrote: >This agrees with my knowledge/experience. Big pads look like WIDE =3D >traces which equals very low impedance, compared to 50ohm traces. Some =3D >of that can be reduced by trimming back the ground plane below the pads. =3D > Experiments showed no increase in crosstalk with the ground planes = =3D >trimmed back. > >Jeff Loyer > > >-----Original Message----- >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3D >On Behalf Of Kai Keskinen >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 1:39 PM >To: Cortex.Chen@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: To remove reference planes under the gold finger =3D >areas > >I would think it is to reduce the capacitance so that the signals don't =3D >see >a big localized impedance change. > >-----Original Message----- >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Cortex Chen >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:17 AM >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [SI-LIST] To remove reference planes under the gold finger >areas > > >Dear SI experts, >I'm working to design a FB-DIMM add-in card. To recall previous =3D >experiences >for PCI-E, I'm confused why it's recommended to remove reference planes >under the gold finger areas of an add-in card. In detail, refer to =3D >section >2.3.2.6 (page 28 ~ 29) of PCI Express Design Guide (rev. no, 0.5, =3D >12978). >Who can tell me what the main reason is? > >By the way, refer to section 6.11.10 (page 417 ~ 418) from Howard =3D >Johnson's >new book, I like to quote some sentences for your reference as below: >"......In a differential-pcb pair, most of the returning current from = =3D >each >trace still flows on the solid plane, not the other trace, because each >differential trace couples much more strongly to the big, solid nearby =3D >plane >than it does to its little, skinny differential buddy....". > >If it's true, then it will cause some effects like "Differential =3D >U-Turn"? >Please give me your comments. > >Thanks & Sincerely > > Cortex Chen =3DB3=3DAF=3DA5=3DC3=3DAAN > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > >List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > >List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > >List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > >List archives are viewable at: =3D20 > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > =3D20 > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > >List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > >List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu