[SI-LIST] Re: Those of you interested in Field Solvers, Stack Ups, Spacing, Crosstalk, Matlab

From: Julian Ferry <julian.ferry@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'jonpowell@xxxxxxxxxxxx'" <jonpowell@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, nicklas@xxxxxxxxx, cclewell@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:38:37 -0500
Craig's ominous warning seems to me to be a bit unfair to the Interactive
Products software. I am not saying that he is wrong, but I think it would be
better to say that you need to be careful with a coupled, lossy model
generated by ANY software.

We have been working on a paper here at Samtec which compares various
approaches to lossy (and lossless) modeling.  We have investigated the
Interactive Products software and the Hspice W-element, along with several
other commonly available packages, including some measurement based
approaches. There are a lot of tools out there.

Our efforts have been ongoing for several years. We were planning to publish
the results to date at DesignConn in January, but our paper was not selected
for presentation.  We are currently considering other options, but haven't
firmed up anything yet. The paper won't include any Earth shattering
technological break-throughs or secret processes, but will be more of a
"lessons learned" sort of document.  We should have something presentable in
a month or two, and I will post a notice to the list here when appropriate.

In general, we have found that the "best" modeling method depends on your
particular situation (how many times have you heard that here?).  There are
definitely pros and cons to each approach. Describing any one of them as the
be all, end all, silver bullet solution just doesn't make sense.  

One of the biggest factors in determining which approach is best for a
particular situation is the type of physical structure involved. We're
personally experienced with cables, PCB's, and connectors. Each of those
tends to have unique features which steer us towards different modeling
approaches.  

Other important trade offs include desired accuracy, time and effort
required to develop the model, time and effort required to use the model,
length scalability, and model portability.  Available material properties
information can play into the mix as well.

I'll let you know when our paper is ready for prime time, and how to access
it.


Julian Ferry
High Speed Engineering Manager
Samtec, Inc.  






-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Jon Powell
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 7:39 PM
To: nicklas@xxxxxxxxx; cclewell@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Those of you interested in Field Solvers, Stack Ups,
Spacing, Crosstalk, Matlab

I am going to make a statement that I cannot support and would be interested
in
any knowledgeable responses:

I had understood that the W-element model in HSPICE was the best (Hspice)
lossy
coupled Tline model.

regards,
jon


-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Nicklas
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 3:11 PM
To: cclewell@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Those of you interested in Field Solvers, Stack
Ups, Spacing, Crosstalk, Matlab


Craig,

Thanks for the info. First of all it is the BEM Field Solver Report and
EZStack Module I was referring to. Secondly, the SPICE model generator is
not included with EZStack, however the lossy SPICE models work well if you
know what you are doing and use the appropriate one. I have benchmarked the
lossy ladder and lossy modal models against H-SPICE, and I have found them
to be stabile (e.g. no causality),  faster and they are universally
portable.  You just have to know that in general, ladder models are better
for shorter structures and modal models are good for longer ones such as
cables. (This has to do with the modes of propagation and the controlled
sources derived from the eigen values for the modal models, and the inherent
solve time issue with respect to the ladder models for longer structures).

Nicklas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Clewell" <cclewell@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nicklas@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 16:40
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Those of you interested in Field Solvers, Stack Ups,
Spacing, Crosstalk, Matlab


> ....be careful of the lossy models that this software generates.
>
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of degerfors1
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:09 PM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Those of you interested in Field Solvers, Stack Ups,
> Spacing, Crosstalk, Matlab
>
>
> There has been much discussion on these topics lately, and I just
> wanted to advise those interested that there is a FREE new BEM
> product with a beautiful interface and extensive report which
> includes Zo,Zeven,Zodd,Zdiff,LRCG, and crosstalk coefficients
> available which can do all of the things being discussed of late in
> this forum. It has been benchmarked against numerous SI tools such
> as Ansoft and comes up strong. You should check it out.
>
> http://www.interactive-products.com
>
> Nicklas
>
>
>
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[SI-LIST] Re: Those of you interested in Field Solvers, Stack Ups, Spacing, Crosstalk, Matlab

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