[SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?

  • From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 18:54:46 -0700

Aubrey, a couple of thoughts:

1. Passing the golden parser is only one check box.  I think that would 
be the bare minimum requirement to even list a model.

2. Tested working with any given EDA tool is another check box for any 
given model. I would kind of expect that any responsible silicon vendor 
would at least test that their models work with one vendor.  My 
experience is that happens a lot less than I would like.  A couple of 
the nice things about the Teraspeed IBIS models that come out of Tom 
Dagostino's measure based operation is that the models are all tested in 
Hyperlynx before they go out.  The vendor alternative to providing 
tested models is a lot of unnecessary FAE expense, customer aggravation, 
and potentially delayed shipments.

If a silicon vendor can show that their model is good to go with one EDA 
tool, then that should provide motive to the remaining EDA vendors to 
test for compatibility.  Where cracks occur vendors can decide whether 
to try and work with the silicon vendors and/or figure out why their EDA 
tool is unhappy.

3. I think the special interest groups that define these various specs 
would be well advised and well served to develop and distribute 
compliance models.  The models don't have to be free, but they should be 
available from the people defining the standard.  One would hope that 
such models are part and parcel of the specification development process 
to make sure at least the physical layer is sane.

Best Regards,


Steve.

Aubrey Sparkman wrote:
> I like the idea of crowdsource, but I DON'T agree that parser clean is 
> sufficient.  I've seen too many models that pass parser but have curves that 
> are not realistic.
>
> While many of the IBIS models I've used in the past have been considered IP, 
> there is a class of models that would be very valuable and not subject to IP. 
>  Back in the day, I made a model for a generic PCI-X buffer model that 
> reflected the PCI-X buffer specification.  Using that model was, in most 
> cases, preferable to using supplier specific buffer models because it enabled 
> me to claim that any suppliers' product that met the PCI-X specification 
> would work in my system.
>
> Does anyone volunteer to create spec based models for the current interfaces 
> such as PCIe-GenX, USB-x, SATA, SAS, etc?
>
> Aubrey Sparkman
> 512-461-6165
> asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> Behalf Of steve weir
> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 6:51 PM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: ibis-users@xxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS 
> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
>
> The IBIS organization is a natural place to maintain a catalog and records of 
> any checks done by vendors: silicon and/or EDA.
>
> The market value to the EDA vendors would be the ability to state the breadth 
> of models that their tools support which might have enough market value to 
> justify the ongoing cost. I would expect that the effort to create automated 
> or semiautomated checking for compatibility would be well within the 
> capability of each EDA vendor and make the amortized cost quite low. I think 
> for any scheme to stand a chance of market acceptance, it cannot impose any 
> substantial additional cost in dollars and/or time on silicon vendors.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Steve.
> Lynne D. Green wrote:
>   
>>  
>> Steve and Colin,
>>
>> The "neutral" third party could be the IBIS Model Review Committee 
>> (who are representatives from EDA vendors).  We could perhaps report 
>> models that pass the parser with no errors and no warnings.  Someone 
>> could encourage vendors to post their parser output file, with 
>> comments about why particular warnings/errors were accepted, but that would 
>> be the vendor's job.
>>
>> Nothing "bad" would be reported about a particular IBIS file.  And 
>> only reporting "parser clean" might help address Jon's (very true) 
>> point about IP protection.  (And more vendors might take advantage of 
>> our "neutral" review service to get on this list.)
>>
>> Another useful thing on the "wiki" might be educational material: 
>> articles and educational materials people contribute, links to IBIS 
>> parser, specs, cookbook, etc.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Lynne
>>
>> Lynne Green
>> Chair
>> IBIS Model Review Committee
>>
>>
>> steve weir wrote: Colin, I don't see an open community Wiki-like 
>> structure ever getting vendor support. There is just too much exposure 
>> to unchecked, and potentially unfounded or even malicious criticism. 
>> We do not live in suchan egalitarian society that vendors locked in 
>> tight competition might nottry and get an edge in new product adoption 
>> by spreading FUD over their competitor's offerings. In a world where 
>> NDA's are required just to obtain data sheets I find it nearly 
>> impossible to believe vendors would expose themselves in such a public 
>> and difficult to control way. I think that if anything is going to come of 
>> this it would have to be either of the form of:
>> a. Voluntary vendor disclosure of standards compliance or b. Vendor 
>> participation in compliance testing by an accepted neutral third party 
>> such as a standards committee (as neutral as those can be). Best 
>> regards, Steve colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[1] wrote: Hi Jon, Yes, IP and 
>> updates are an issue,so the plan is to let IC vendors build a 
>> directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the 
>> models themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK 
>> scores. -- Colin Warwick Signal IntegrityProduct Marketing Manager, 
>> Agilent EEsof EDA blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com[2] 
>> -----Original Message----- From:
>> si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[3] 
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[4]] On Behalf Of Powell, Jon N 
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM To: steve weir; 
>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[5] Cc: bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[6]; ibis@xxxxxxx[7]; 
>> ibis-users@xxxxxxx[8] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for
>> comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as 
>> wikipedia? Isn't there also a legal issue here? Who owns the IP or the 
>> copyright and who is going to be responsible for violation of said 
>> when a copy is kept in a database? Jon Powell EPSD Product SI 將
>> -----OriginalMessage----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[9] 
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[10]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
>> Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[11] Cc:
>> bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[12]; ibis@xxxxxxx[13]; ibis-users@xxxxxxx[14] Subject:
>> [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model 
>> directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Colin, Hosting is so 
>> cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database mechanics is not 
>> particularly difficult either. The real cost is in the administration. 
>> In my opinion this needs people willing to serve as librarians who 
>> will act as the gate keepers so that the site is not overrun with junk. Best 
>> Regards, Steve.
>> colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[15] wrote: Hi, Thanks to everyone for the 
>> feedback and encouragement :-) There are several options each with 
>> pros and cons * Webpage with an appointed honorary librarian * Wikis 
>> e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/[16] * 
>> Discussion forums (bulletin
>> boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.forummatrix.org/[17] * 
>> Email reflectors like the si-list //freelists.org[18] * Shared 
>> document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet. 
>> http://docs.google.com/[19] * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave 
>> http://wave.google.com[20] which they say is a "next generation" 
>> email/collaboration/documentation tool Here are some issues with
>> each: * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but 
>> email reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to 
>> aggregate threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations. * 
>> WYSIWYG versus markup
>> languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a mark up language. 
>> * "Onetruth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom"
>> (conversation)(yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative):
>> **Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the 
>> editors on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion 
>> page for editors behind the "real" page for readers) whereas ** 
>> Discussion Forums let everyonevoice their own opinion and each reader 
>> has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the 
>> (possibly heated)
>> conversation.* Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable 
>> for their contribution? How exclude spam in? * Privacy: How much info 
>> to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a writer? How to 
>> prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents? * 
>> History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete "bad" 
>> postings? * Who pays?
>> There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do we 
>> want an adfree site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split 
>> the check?
>> * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database 
>> schema (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in 
>> (possibly
>> interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to 
>> a consensus schema? * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and 
>> benefits for the admin? I added a second straw poll to the bottom of:
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
>> -directory/[21] ...so you can vote for your favorite... Best regards, 
>> -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA 
>> -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[22] 
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[23]] On Behalf Of Howard Johnson Sent:
>> Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[24] Subject:
>> [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model 
>> directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Hey Colin, I think you 
>> are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time 
>> farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort 
>> seems wasted.
>> I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so 
>> the readers of the list could see if other people found the model 
>> "useful". Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I 
>> believe it would be crucial, because I believe you will never get an 
>> official committee to vet the models -- it has to be done through 
>> independent user evaluations. Good luck, and keep plugging on this 
>> idea, it's a good one. Yes, I went to your link and voted. Best 
>> regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
>> tel+1 509-997-0505, howie03@xxxxxxxxxx[25] www.sigcon.com[26] -- 
>> tel+High-Speed
>> Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original 
>> Message-----
>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[27] 
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[28]] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent:
>> Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM To: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[29] Cc:
>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[30] Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call 
>> for
>> comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as 
>> wikipedia? My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends 
>> on how well the directory would be maintained / policed and whether 
>> the directory would include information that would indicate the model's 
>> likely usefulness.
>> There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), 
>> that aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any 
>> way. Some of them do not even parse. Anyway, if this is going to be 
>> undertaken, I would really like to see something similar to the way 
>> that the FPGA vendors list IPcores. Target Model Manufacturer Target 
>> Model Part Number Free or pay modelModel basis: Raw original model, 
>> SPICE derived model, Measurement based model IBIS version Passed 
>> parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or not Link to model, 
>> or model supplier Steve colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx[31]
>> wrote: Hi, Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or 
>> contributing to an IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as 
>> wikipedia? Please vote in this informal straw poll:
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models
>> -director[32y/ ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this 
>> thread. Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but 
>> was disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it 
>> here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on 
>> the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!) Best regards, -- Colin 
>> Warwick Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA 
>> -----Original Message----- From:WARWICK,COLIN Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 
>> 2010 11:59 AM To:
>> IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[33]' Subject: Straw poll 
>> and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model directory by use of a 
>> wiki such as wikipedia? Hi, I get several emails a month from 
>> customers asking "Is there an IBIS model for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I 
>> usually point them at:
>> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html[34]
>> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm[35] If the info is 
>> out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an advanced 
>> Google search like:
>> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c
>> [36] om(replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain, 
>> obviously) ButI'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and 
>> pray" Googling or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update 
>> requests. Sooo...How about crowdsourcing? "Crowd-what-ing," you say? 
>> Here's a definition from
>> wikipedia: 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and 
>> Outsourcing for the act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an 
>> employee or contractor, and outsourcing them to a group of people or 
>> community, through an "open call" to a large group of people (a crowd) 
>> asking for contributions.' (from 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing[37] ) Specifically, I'm 
>> wondering if we should create a table off of the main IBIS page on wikipedia:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica
>> [38] tion ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info 
>> themselves.
>> It would look something like this prototype I cobbled together:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information
>> [39] _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models Thoughts? Please vote in this 
>> informal straw poll:
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di
>> [40] rectory/ and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this 
>> thread. Best regards, -- Colin Warwick Signal Integrity Product 
>> Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
>>
>>
>> --- Links ---
>>    1 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>    2 http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com
>>    3 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    4 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    5 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    6 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    7 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
>>    8 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
>>    9 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   10 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   11 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   12 mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   13 mailto:ibis@xxxxxxx
>>   14 mailto:ibis-users@xxxxxxx
>>   15 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>   16 http://www.wikimatrix.org/
>>   17 http://www.forummatrix.org/
>>   18 //freelists.org
>>   19 http://docs.google.com/
>>   20 http://wave.google.com
>>   21 
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/
>>   22 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   23 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   24 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   25 mailto:howie03@xxxxxxxxxx
>>   26 http://www.sigcon.com
>>   27 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   28 mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   29 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>   30 mailto:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   31 mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>   32 
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director
>>   33 mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   34 http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html
>>   35 http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm
>>   36 http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c
>>   37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing
>>   38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica
>>   39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information
>>   40 
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di
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>
> --
> Steve Weir
> IPBLOX, LLC
> 150 N. Center St. #211
> Reno, NV  89501
> www.ipblox.com
>
> (775) 299-4236 Business
> (866) 675-4630 Toll-free
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-- 
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC 
150 N. Center St. #211
Reno, NV  89501 
www.ipblox.com

(775) 299-4236 Business
(866) 675-4630 Toll-free
(707) 780-1951 Fax


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