JaMi Smith: Excellent suggestions for protecting PCB design files. ed ======================== Dr. Edward P. Sayre, P. E. North East Systems Associates, Inc. 1 South Avenue, 3rd Floor Natick, MA 01760 [T] 508-652-0088 [F] 508-652-0083 > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [SPAM] [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering > From: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: Fri, May 19, 2006 11:53 am > To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > It is not always true that the fab data on an old design is available, even > from the board house . . . > I have had board houses go out of business and simply close their doors, > without any notice to their customers or leaving any contact data. > > I have actually had to recreate a small double sided board with less than 20 > components for a friend who has been re-ordering the same boards for over 25 > years, from the same board house, that went out of business before he could > make a final buy, from original film shot from a hand taped artwork, where > all that he could lay his hands on was film - there never were Gerbers. The > board house closed it's doors, and I re-did the board for him from scratch, > using all of the original dimensions and physical part locations, so that it > would fit into his case, which he had also been re-ording from someone else > for over 25 years, and made him a CD ROM with all the necessary files, and > even submitted it electronically to several other board houses for him, so > that he could continue his legitimate business selling his original design > as he has been doing for over 25 years. > > These things really do happen. > > On the other hand, I have personally had people "pirate" a design from me > and another friend whom I did the design for, at a great loss of revenue for > him, not to mention other problems. > > Original artwork, electronic or otherwise, is in fact copywritable, although > very few people ever do it. This sometimes helps, especially if the "pirate" > doesn't repackage the pcb, as was the case here, where although the "pirate" > did "retape" the pcb, he was stupid enough to make an exact copy of the > layout, so that my friend could go after him with a lawyer, for copyrite > violation, which he did. > > There is also the case of what I call the "middle ground", where you may be > legitimately purchasing a "module" from a vendor who simply goes belly up > and totally disappears, and is unable to continue supplying that module > anymore, which may be critical to your end product, and who is not even > there anymore to ask permission to reproduce his module, or simply says "go > ahead and make your own". This too actually happens, more often than one > would expect, especially in todays economy. > > I sat in on one of the IPC Commitee Meetings at APEX two years ago, where > they were trying to finalize a Standard Format for Electronic Data Exchange. > I incurred the wrath of Dieter Bergman when I brought up the subject of > Security and Ownership, and suggessted that each and every "File Format", > should have a place to place an Ownership Statement, along with Non > Disclosure and / or Confidentiality Agreements, and specifically for > Copywrite information. There were a few people at the meeting that seemed to > agree, but Dieter didn't want to spend any time on the subject, so it "fell > by the wayside". I was on the Commitee (CAMX) "emailing list" for a while, > but was conveinently dropped in due course. > > I would highly recommend that everyone in the design business start thinking > about the issue of Ownership, and Copywrite, and other Priprietary Rights, > when it comes to their Designs, and specifically with respect to things such > as "Gerber Files", and other types of files containing "Design Data", and > specifically think about including "Statements" regarding such "Files" > within the "files" themselves, where ever possible, and specifically within > other documents such as a Purchase Order.. > > Years ago we always used to have such statements "printed" in the standard > "Company Title Block" on the standard pre-printed vellum we used for all of > our drawings, or have a "Confidentiality Statement" in small print in one of > the corners of each drawing. Many times this has been carried over to > "Electronic Drawings", but only very rarely has this ever been done with > actual "files" themselves. I would recommend that all in this "forum" give a > little thought to what they can do within their respective companies, to > protect themselves. I would minimumally recommend including a text file in > your standard "zipped" manufacturing file package that you send to the board > house or assembly house, stating something to the effect that "All files > contained herein are Confidential and Proprietaty to John Doe Co., owner of > said files, and are only provided to enable manufacture of such and such, > specifically and only for John Doe Co., and their representatives, blah blah > blah, etc., etc., etc., ... and that such files shall remain the > Intellectual, and Physical, and Electronic Property of John Doe Co., ... > > Point being, that you should rethink about how you and /or your company and > /or the company you work for, can cover your own a##, and retain ownership > of your own intellectual property, in the event that you need to. > > This is especially true for any designs or files that go "off-shore", for > "off-shore manufacturing". I won't mention any names or specific countries > here, so as not to offend anyone in particular, but I am sure that everyone > has heard a horror story or two, where the company doing the "off-shore > manufacturing", ended up selling the product themselves. This too has really > happened. > > If you cover yourself well enough up front, maybe you can prevent your own > "designs" from becoming the subject of this type of conversation. > > And yes, if you can't tell by now, I think that this is a very appropriate > topic of conversation for this forum. > > Specifically, I would wonder how others have dealt with, or would deal with, > what I have called the "middle ground" issue above. I have actually > encountered this problem, where I have actually had to do "reverse > engineering" myself, when a supplied ceased to exist. > > And in answer to the original question on this subject, yes, multilayered > boards can in fact be "reverse engineered". > > JaMi Smith > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:25 AM > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering > > > Then why is the design data, schematics, board files, gerbers, not > available? If nothing else, you should know where the board was > fabricated. The fabricator will have a record of the gerber files used. > > Scott McMorrow > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 121 North River Drive > Narragansett, RI 02882 > (401) 284-1827 Business > (401) 284-1840 Fax > > http://www.teraspeed.com > > Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > > > > Kedar P Apte wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > I was expecting this Question - never mind > > I am not in that business - > > I think this answer is quiet straight forward and simple to understand. > > > > > > Regards, > > Kedar > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of steve weir > > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:31 PM > > To: kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering > > > > > > Are you asking for help finding tools so you can steal someone else' > > design? Who helps a thief? > > > > If you think that theft is OK can you provide me with Patni's > > corporate bank account numbers and access codes? I think there are > > many people who might like to out-source funding of their accounts > payable. > > > > > > Steve. > > At 03:33 AM 5/18/2006, Kedar P Apte wrote: > > > >> Hi All Gurus, > >> I want some info or guidance about reverse engineering a multi Layered > PCB. > >> > >> Can there be any way, method, tool, vendor who can get gerbers/netlist > out > >> of a multilayered PCB. > >> > >> May be by x-ray method or any other way. > >> > >> I have a PCB with multiple BGA components and I need to come out with > it's > >> schematic. > >> > >> I need information about how to do this task. > >> > >> Can you please provide me the different ways available if any.. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Kedar > >> > >> http://www.patni.com > >> World-Wide Partnerships. 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