Experts - If the physical placement of the caps does not matter, why do vendors like Intel advise us to place them close to the transmitters, for PCIe use? No matter how carefully you place the caps and route the pairs, it seems that having them (and the vias and layer changes etc) causes an impedance bump of some sort, and for this reason, it would be better to have them close to the source package. Just my amateur opinion - Stefan M. @ Kontron ________________________________ From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of wolfgang.maichen@xxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thu 10/22/2009 10:15 AM To: Lee Ritchey Cc: Sam Pete; icer world; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SPAM] - [SI-LIST] Re: AC cap placement on Clocks - Email found in subject Hello Sam, an ideal capacitor will be completely transparent and high-frequency signal (down to the cutoff frequency - the capacitor C in combination with the Thevenin-equivalent line impedance of 2*Zo form a high-pass filter with a time constant of 2*Zo*C). So from that standpoint it does not matter at all where you place it, as Lee already stated. Of course a real capacitor always has some parasitic package and mounting inductance, so if you go to very high frequencies or data rates (multi-Gbit/sec) you will end up seeing reflections caused by that. Although at your speeds (below a GHz) that won't be an issue unless you reeally mess up the design (e.g. use a through-hole capacitor instead of a good surface mount ceramic one). In that case it will be better in improve your design rather than try to find a "sweet spot" for the placement which will make your design very sensitive against any changes (e.g. line length, other parasitics). Failing that, the best bet is probably to place it very close (within ~1/4th of the shortest wavelength of interest, given by the frequency 0.33/rise_time) to either your driver or your receiver. The second consideration would be whether you put in the AC coupling purely for signaling reasons (e.g. to avoid debiasing driver or receiver), or whether it shall also act as protection. If e.g. it shall protect the driver against short circuits (e.g. if driver and receiver reside on different boards that get hot-plugged together), it may be better to place the cpacitor on the driver side. But that willd depend on the specific design. Wolfgang "Lee Ritchey" <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent by: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 10/22/2009 06:39 AM To "icer world" <icermail@xxxxxxxxx>, "Sam Pete" <cygnul@xxxxxxxxx>, si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx cc Subject [SI-LIST] Re: AC cap placement on Clocks Form an SI point of view, it does not matter where along the path the capacitors are placed. > [Original Message] > From: icer world <icermail@xxxxxxxxx> > To: Sam Pete <cygnul@xxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: 10/21/2009 8:48:26 PM > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AC cap placement on Clocks > > It's hard to say where the AC cap should be placed ,so you'd better do a simulation if you have device models . > I'm in doubt that why you use the AC coupling manner since the driver and the receiver are both LVDS level. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Sam Pete <cygnul@xxxxxxxxx> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 7:22:17 AM > Subject: [SI-LIST] AC cap placement on Clocks > > Hi All, > I have a situation like this: > LVDS Driver, ac cap, LVDS receiver (internal term) 156MHz clock. > |>-----------------||----------------|> > |>-----------------||----------------|> > > > What is the optimum place to put coupling cap when the clock is ac-coupled. > Should it be close to driver or should it be close to receiver. > > From my understanding, the discontinuity should not be visible to the electrical length of the signal. Having said that, ac cap should be as close as possible to Driver. > > please share your thoughts. > > Thanks > Sam > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net <http://www.si-list.net/> List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu