Lee Fortunately for us, the physics are clear. If the correct land/via patterns are used, 50 mils of via reach will not swamp out the advantages of some types of low inductance capacitors. In fact, the difference will asymptotically approach the inductance ratio of the coupled via systems themselves at infinite via length. For the case of X2Y capacitors with 6-vias vs. 0402 with 4-vias, this ratio is 2:1. That is, the 6-via pattern of the X2Y is 2 times as efficient as the 4-via 0402 pattern. Even if we normalize for number of vias, the X2Y pattern is still 1.33 times more efficient per via drill. However, in real PCBs we are not dealing with infinitely long vias, so the performance advantage is much better, and typically 3:1 or 4:1 depending on the 0402 via pattern (2-via or 4-via) used. However, if you incorrectly design your board such that a PRF occurs within a few octaves of where you need low PDS impedance, that is a different issue altogether, which can only be resolved by moving the PRF with the correct spatial distribution of capacitors. Low inductance capacitors are also more efficient in dealing with this problem. Scott Scott McMorrow Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC Lee Ritchey wrote: > Tom, > > Well put! > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Tom Biggs <tbiggs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Date: 2/26/2008 6:16:04 PM >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [!! SPAM] Re: 6 layers stackup >> >> You can take the bulldozer analogy two ways. It depends on whether you >> care about the weight of the bulldozer with passengers, or just the >> weight of the passengers. >> >> Steve's test fixture was geared toward 'weighing the passengers'. Lee's >> was toward 'weighing the bulldozer'. So they each served their purpose. >> His whole point was that the vias going down 50 mils on a board are >> going to swamp out the advantages of low inductance caps. His test >> fixture, by design, had vias that go down 50mils. I'm sure he'd agree >> that this would be a bad fixture for measuring the cap itself, which was >> not his goal. >> >> The appropriate land pattern to use for the low-inductance caps is a >> separate issue. I'd be curious to see Lee's board with Steve's land >> pattern. >> >> -tom >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >> On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad >> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:31 PM >> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [!! SPAM] Re: 6 layers stackup >> >> Can't resist to illustrate this with an example: >> >> If you want to compare the weight of an ant and a cricket and you put >> them on top of the same bulldozer, you will not see much difference in >> their weight... >> >> Arpad >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey >> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:16 AM >> To: Charles Grasso; Scott McMorrow >> Cc: Steve Weir; QU Perry; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [!! SPAM] Re: 6 layers stackup >> >> What does the test vehicle have to do with it? Both capacitors are >> seeing >> the same stackup. It's apples and apples. Why 26 layers? Lots of >> PCBs >> have 26 layers, pretty much all of them in terabit routers. This PCB >> was used to test may things besides these two capacitors. >> >> What is being presented is the difference between the two capacitors >> under the same set of test conditions and it is not much. >> >> There are two sets of tests. One with the capacitors connected to the >> first two planes inside the PCB, which is the lowest added inductance >> and the other is with the capacitors attached to two planes further down >> in the PCB. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: =20 >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> =20 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu