Hi Yuri,
interesting ... Yes, you missed something big!
You missed, that YOU are this defacto industry standard!
Congratulation! ;-)
Hermann
EKH - EyeKnowHow
Signal Quality - Made in Bavaria
Hermann Ruckerbauer
www.EyeKnowHow.de
Hermann.Ruckerbauer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Itzlinger Strasse 21a
94469 Deggendorf
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Am 12.07.2016 um 16:57 schrieb Grasso, Charles:
Hey Yuri - I was referring to the " something like the channel modeling
platform CMP-28 from Wild River Technology www.wildrivertech.com - see how
it can be done at webinars #4 and #5 at http://www.simberian.com/Webinars.php";
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Yuriy Shlepnev [mailto:shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 4:51 PM
To: Grasso, Charles; billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; hakim.sellaoui@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Analysis Project
Charles,
You mentioned " there is now a defacto industry standard for simulation tool
designers to aim at as well " - what is that standard? Probably, I missed
something big :-)
There are three levels of the software validation: self-convergence,
comparison with result obtained by different methods and comparison with the
measured data. The last level is really tricky and, according to my
experience, can be used only to figure out the effects that are not accounted
for in the model at the development stage and not for the solver
"calibration". The measurements cannot be considered as exact answer.
Actually, many years ago James Rautio tried to introduce examples to properly
benchmark the electromagnetic software - see
http://www.sonnetsoftware.com/products/sonnet-suites/benchmarking.html - as ;
the saying goes "In God we trust, all others must have proof." Those
benchmarks are still valid.
All problems we are solving for PCBs (they can be considered microwave
circuits nowadays) cannot be solved exactly and the benchmark help to define
the accuracy and the limitations.
Also, use of analysis tools in the papers to illustrate an idea is
justifiable, but different from the analysis to measurement correlation
topic. For instance, using a static solver we can safely predict that the
increase of distance between traces reduces the cross-talk. We can trust it.
If we build a board and measure the cross-talk, we will see that the idea is
correct - father strips produce lower cross-talk. But, it does not mean that
you can predict the measured cross-talk numbers, even with a previously
validated solver. As I mentioned, a systematic approach that includes the
manufacturing aspects should be in place, to have the correlation.
Best regards,
Yuriy
Yuriy Shlepnev, Ph.D.
President, Simberian Inc.
2629 Townsgate Rd., Suite #235, Westlake Village, CA 91361, USA Office
+1-702-876-2882; Fax +1-702-482-7903 Cell +1-206-409-2368; Virtual
+1-408-627-7706
Skype: shlepnev
www.simberian.com
Simbeor – Accurate, Productive and Cost-Effective Electromagnetic Signal
Integrity Software
2010 and 2011 DesignVision Award Winner, 2015 Best In Design&Test Finalist
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Grasso, Charles
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:54 PM
To: billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; hakim.sellaoui@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Analysis Project
LOL - I get it. Caveat Emptor ...
But hey - I trust that the guys at ADS are doing their level best to provide
accurate results... it is not uncommon to use well known structures as a
starting point. Indeed I have just learned that there is now a defacto
industry standard for simulation tool designers to aim at as well.
Over the years sim tools have transitioned from a thing of suspicion to an
assumption of accuracy! Just look at all of the peer reviewed papers that
have sim results *ONLY* to derive conclusions.
I'd say that asking for calibration examples is a safe first step nowadays.
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hargin (Nan Ya, USA) [mailto:billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:53 PM
To: Grasso, Charles; hakim.sellaoui@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Analysis Project
This *is* the web, Charles. :-)
Bill Hargin
Director of North American Sales and Marketing Nan Ya Copper-Clad Laminates
billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ▪ 425-301-4425 ▪ Skype: bill.hargin
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Grasso, Charles
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:16 PM
To: hakim.sellaoui@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: SI Analysis Project
Why not contact ADS and ask them for validation examples?
Or look on the web for like minded individuals that have already done what
you are looking for?
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Hakim Sellaoui
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 5:16 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] FW: SI Analysis Project
Hi All,
I'm a graduate engineer with some experience in RF PA design and currently
trying to explore SI simulators for high speed digital, preferably using ADS,
as the learning curve won't be as steep.
I'm looking for some ideas for a project to test ADS's new SIPI Pro
simulator. However, I'm still new to and learning about the HSD world, so
nothing too complicated :)
I essentially want to have two PCB designs; one designed with high-speed
digital guidelines in mind, and the other without. Then fabricate the design
after the simulation to compare the results.
Thanks in advance!
--
Hakim Sellaoui
Associate Hardware Engineer
DisplayLink (UK) Limited
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