[SI-LIST] Re: S parameter to time domain signal
- From: Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: ron@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:24:12 -0500
Ron
You are sorely mistaken. Hyperlynx, ICX and ICX-Pro all use Mentor's
Eldo Spice simulator for frequency dependent simulation, not some
"behavorial simulator" as you incorrectly state. Eldo does perform
accurate frequency and time domain simulation of lossy touchstone
s-parameters. I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you talk about
using a "single frequency attenuation factor". Frequency dependent loss
is implicit in the real and imaginary portions of the s-parameter
matrices. IIRC the Mentor algorithm fits s-parameters to a passive
rational polynomial that will match the ADS convolution method in
accuracy. At one time, you were correct that other methods did not
offer the accuracy of the convolutional methods for the transient
simulation of s-parameters. However, that has changed significantly in
the past 5 years. Much good theoretical and practical work has been
done in the industry on alternative methods based on pole-zero, state
space. and hybrid convolutional methods for the transient simulation of
s-parameters.
ADS is a fine piece of software. However, there are also other
simulators available that provide results that are just as accurate for
transient simulations.
regards,
Scott
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
ron@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Hi Bill and Cody
> The beharioural simulators you mention do not accurately simulate the time
> domain simulations. Where no great deal of accuracy is required these
> simulatiors
> provide a minimum level of assurance that a circuit may operate.
>
> The strength of the beharioural simulators is only in their fast
> simulation time and
> in the tie-in to the board layout software. Quick and easy but weak in
> accuracy.
>
> Spice type simulators are quite a bit better, take more time to run but
> do not
> show frequency dependent loss.
>
> ALL THE SIMULATION TOOLS YOU USE, USE ONLY A SINGLE
> FREQUENCY ATTENUATION FACTOR FOR ANY OF THE
> S-PARAMETERS..
>
> Only ADS uses a convolution of the impuse response obtained from the
> S-Parameters to convert the the model back into the time domain.. Anything
> less is only an approximation.
>
> Ron Miller
>
>
>
>
> Hargin, Bill wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Cody/Ron:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Does anyone in the group know of any available software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> packages that
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> can take post measurement S11 data and convert it to a time domain=20
>>>> reflected signal?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> While it's true that tools with RF roots perform this analysis, we've
>> offered this functionality for years ourselves, and I'm sure there are
>> several others offering this functionality ... 3 Mentor tools that do
>> this:
>>
>> HyperLynx: Pre- and post-layout; Works in any PCB flow.
>> ICX: Primarily for floorplanning and post-layout; Board Station and
>> Expedition.
>> ICX Pro: Pre- and post-layout; Tightly integrated into the Expedition
>> flow.
>>
>>
>> Bill Hargin
>> High-Speed Marketing Manager
>> Mentor Graphics Corp.
>> Systems Design Division
>> 425-301-4425 - Mobile=20
>>
>> =20
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ron@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:51 PM
>>> To: codymiller@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: S parameter to time domain signal
>>> =20
>>> Hi Cody
>>> =20
>>> ADS is the only tool that takes complex S-Parameter data as a=20
>>> model and simulates the time domain signals including reflections.
>>> =20
>>> Call Agilent.... Lease is about 20K per year fully supported
>>> =20
>>> Ron Miller
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> codymiller@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>>> =20
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone in the group know of any available software=20
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> packages that=20
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> can take post measurement S11 data and convert it to a time domain=20
>>>> reflected signal?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Cody Miller
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>>>>
>>> =20
>>> =20
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