Dear Ken Cantrell et. al., [You'll find some background for this discussion in my newsletter v.5 #9 titled "Via Capactiance" available at www.sigcon.com -- look for "publications". This article appears near the top of the chronological listing. Inside the article is refers to a table of results for other interesting combinations of via capacitance. That table is located (as Mr. Cantrell points out) at http://www.sigcon.com/pubs/news/viacapacitance.pdf ] I've been wondering, too, about the effect of stripping pads from plane layers. I'm not aware of any good approximations for dealing with the issue, but I did recently get my hands on some data that may interest you. The following analysis of via capacitance was by performed by Matt Hudale of Ansoft Corporation using the Ansoft Q3D Extractor Version 5. I provided to Matt a schedule of via configurations that were of interest to me. Of course you can't do all possible combinations, but I tried to pick some that would clearly show the effect of stripping pads. In the first three tables, Matt assumed an overall board thickness of 0.063 in., with signal layers (and thus signal pads) always present on the top and bottom layers. In table one, the intervening space included one pair of reference planes, one located 5 mils below the top surface, and one 5 mils above the bottom surface, of the board. In table two, we added another pair of reference planes equally spaced within the board (keeping the first pair in their original position). In table three, we added yet another pair of reference planes interior to the layer stack, bringing the total to six (this includes the first two, plus four others equally spaced within the board). In tables 1, 2, and 3 the via drilled diameter is fixed at 12 mils. The first section of each table shows the results for various combinations of via and clearance-hole sizes, with the pads stripped on reference plane layers. Note that in some cases the pad diameter exceeds the clearance diameter -- something that is possible only if the pads are stipped (this is what you might do to maintain continuity of the reference planes in very dense designs). The second section of each table shows the results when the pads are retained on the reference-plane layers in cases where it is geometrically possible to do so. In the first three tables Matt simulated pad diameters of 24, 30, and 36 mils, and clearance diameters of 24, 30, and 36 mils. Examination of the data indicated that the measured data formed a fairly flat surface when plotted against the pad and clearance diameters, so I went ahead and interpolated his data to finer gradations, showing interpolated results at steps of of 2 mils. This doesn't add any new information, it just makes it easier to use the table. In table four we played around with a thicker board (0.096-in.) and more reference planes. In all cases Matt connected short 70-ohm traces to the via. He measured the total capactiance of the combination of via and trace, and the subtracted out the capacitance of a trace of equivalent length (and with equivanlent fringing fields at its start and finish points) to arrive at a final figure for the effective capacitance added to the line by the presence of the via structure. Other simulations I have seen that look just at the capacitance of a via in isolation from the traces tend to report values of capacitance about 100 fF larger than those reported here. That's because a measurement made in isolation includes all the fringing fields from the capacitor and neglects to compute the mutual capacitance between the via and the trace. I hope this data is useful to you. It will appear in my upcoming book, "High-Speed Signal Propagation", due out from Prentice-Hall in early 2003. Best regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., tel +1 509-997-0505, howiej@xxxxxxxxxx http:\\sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design articles, books, tools, and seminars ---------------**begin tables**-------------------- Copyright Howard Johnson and Signal Consulting 2002 The following tables should be viewed with a fixed-width font. ------------------------------------------- Table 5.10A-Via capacitance data for TWO reference planes Pad Clearance diameter (mil) dia. (mil) 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 Pads stripped 36 535 510 485 461 438 416 394 34 500 476 451 427 406 385 364 32 466 442 417 393 373 353 333 30 432 408 383 358 340 322 303 28 398 375 352 328 312 295 279 26 365 342 320 298 283 269 254 24 331 310 289 268 255 242 229 Pads in place 30 429 28 407 380 26 385 358 331 24 362 335 308 281 NOTE(1)-HOLE DIA=12 mil, BOARD THICKNESS=63 mil, Er=4.3 NOTE (2)-All capacitances in fF ------------------------------------------- Table 5.10B-Via capacitance data for FOUR reference planes Pad Clearance diameter (mil) dia. (mil) 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 Pads stripped 36 639 599 560 521 485 449 413 34 603 565 527 489 454 418 383 32 567 530 494 457 422 388 353 30 531 496 460 425 391 357 323 28 494 462 430 399 365 332 299 26 456 428 401 373 340 307 275 24 419 395 371 347 315 283 251 Pads in place 30 706 28 664 613 26 622 571 520 24 580 529 478 427 NOTE(1)- HOLE DIA=12 mil, BOARD THICKNESS=63 mil, Er=4.3 NOTE (2)-All capacitances in fF ------------------------------------------- Table 5.10C-Via capacitance data for SIX reference planes Pad Clearance diameter (mil) dia. (mil) 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 Pads stripped 36 694 649 604 560 521 482 444 34 654 610 566 522 485 447 410 32 614 571 528 484 448 412 376 30 575 532 489 447 412 377 342 28 544 503 462 422 389 355 322 26 513 474 435 397 365 334 302 24 482 445 409 372 342 312 282 Pads in place 30 910 28 852 780 26 794 722 650 24 737 665 592 520 NOTE(1)- HOLE DIA=12 mil, BOARD THICKNESS=63 mil, Er=4.3 NOTE (2)-All capacitances in fF ------------------------------------------- Table 5.10D-Via capacitance data for 0.096-in. board Drill Pad Clear Ref Via ed dia ance . cap hole ., dia., pla . dia., mil mil nes (fF) mil Pads stripped 26 38 52 4 639 26 38 52 6 684 26 38 52 8 721 Pads in place 26 38 52 4 784 26 38 52 6 934 26 38 52 8 1081 NOTE(1)- BOARD THICKNESS=96 mil, Er=4.3 NOTE (2)-All capacitances in fF ---------------**end tables**-------------------- -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Ken Cantrell Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 3:15 PM To: degers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; chris.mcgrath@xxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Parasitic capacitance of vias Here it is: http://www.sigcon.com/pubs/news/viacapacitance.pdf -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Michael J. Degerstrom Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:36 AM To: chris.mcgrath@xxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Parasitic capacitance of vias Chris, The formula provided by Johnson/Graham bounds the upper limit of the capacitance by assuming the via is surrounded by a coaxial shield with a diameter equal to the antipad diameter. My first guess would be that the actual capacitance of the via is at least half the upper limit value. Dr. Johnson posted a table with more accurate via capacitance estimates on his website several months ago, but I was not able to find it. Mike On Thursday 12 September 2002 02:28 pm, chris.mcgrath@xxxxxxxx wrote: > In the Johnson/Graham text (Section 7.2), it discusses parasitic > capacitance being the result of several PCB parameters including the > diameter of the via pad and the diameter of the clearance hole in the > ground planes. However, there is a caveat that states that the equation > "assumes there is a pad on every layer" and that if the designer omits pads > on layers not connected to traces (as we are doing), this should "slightly > reduce the parasitic capacitance". Does anybody know by how much? In my > case, the parasitic capacitance actually makes enough of a difference to > warrant asking the question. > > Thanks, > Chris > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu