[SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering we could stop it
- From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: gianguida@xxxxxxxx,pakbazf@xxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:54:30 -0700
Giancarlo, assuming the best is fine, but we should also not deny our
ability to think and reason. When a man standing before me with a
can of gasoline and oily rags asks if he can borrow a lighter, I am
going to express my suspicions and decline.
People have from time to time tried to use the list to among other
things help with software piracy efforts. We have had some other
questionable occurrences. Not so long ago someone came presenting
themselves as an engineer "asking on behalf of a friend" for any dirt
he could get on a particular vendor's product. To my nose it was an
attorney with an ulterior motive. Others may have smelled something
else or nothing at all. While the overwhelming majority of questions
are innocent, not all are.
Regards,
Steve.
At 11:36 AM 5/22/2006, Ing. Giancarlo Guida wrote:
>My two cents....
>
>May be I have a romantic concept of my colleagues
>or an high consideration of our community
>but I tent to believe that all question or problem posed to this forum
>come from honest and genuine needs.
>
>On the other hand anyone could have his own ideas
>and his own suspect so when a question seems to not be
>honest we could have the habit to answer.
>I am not going to answer because this and that
>...without judgment on the morality of the colleagues who posted the
>question....
>
>A free forum should remain as much as free as possible
>without too many rules
>all partecipant can apply theyr own deciding if
>a question should be replied or not.....
>
>Giancarlo
>
>P.S In all these years I have seen just few suspicious questions...
>does this means that we are in a nice community?
>
>
>Faraydon Pakbaz ha scritto:
> > Well...Of course mentioning the "Reverse Engineering" raises the flag,
> > because
> > in every copyright, IP development the process of "Reverse Engineering" Is
> > prohibited. What I don't understand is, why such a question gets posted in
> > the
> > Si-List? You have a need? Fine! I understand! Then higher IP lawyer follow
> > the
> > legal process or what ever the legal process is, etc and get what you want.
> > Oh
> > by the way I don't buy the argument of " vendor went belly up" because you
> > should always do second source and risk management. How do we know
> > while we advising somebody for so called "Justifiable Reason" somebody
> > else is not taking advantage of information for ill purposes. The bottom
> > line is:
> > " There is no right reason to do a wrong thing."
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards;
> >
> > Don Pakbaz
> >
> > Silicon Solutions Engineering
> > IBM Systems & Technology Group
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nagel
> > Michael-amn029"
> > <Michael.Nagel@mo To
> > torola.com> <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent by: cc
> > si-list-bounce@fr
> > eelists.org Subject
> > [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse
> > Engineering
> > 05/22/2006 08:12
> > AM
> >
> >
> > Please respond to
> > Michael.Nagel@mot
> > orola.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Good point - the copyright on PCB artwork.
> >
> > I agree that these situations may exist, but as Kedar did not=20
> > elaborate much on this, doubts are allowed.
> >
> > When the company developing the board(s) goes out of business,
> > they leave a larger trace behind than many people imagine.
> > The PCB manufacturer they use has the Gerber files and I doubt that=20
> > they disappear immediately when the originator of these files
> > goes out of business.
> >
> > A PCB manufacturer will not hand out the data to another company
> > except when the originator agrees. This is merely a question of ethics,
> > when customers get to know this, the PCB manufacturer is out of
> > business.=20
> >
> > Once we are in the "middle ground" where the original manufacturer does
> > not
> > exist anymore, access to this data (which might still be in one of the
> > back-ups)
> > can be discussed.
> >
> > Reverse Engineering - even with good reason - has always a bad taste,
> > but=20
> > that's my very personal view.
> >
> > Michael Nagel
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of JaMi Smith
> > Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 8:53 PM
> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Cc: JaMi Smith
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
> >
> > It is not always true that the fab data on an old design is available,
> > even from the board house . . .
> > I have had board houses go out of business and simply close their doors,
> > without any notice to their customers or leaving any contact data.
> >
> > I have actually had to recreate a small double sided board with less
> > than 20 components for a friend who has been re-ordering the same boards
> > for over 25 years, from the same board house, that went out of business
> > before he could make a final buy, from original film shot from a hand
> > taped artwork, where all that he could lay his hands on was film - there
> > never were Gerbers. The board house closed it's doors, and I re-did the
> > board for him from scratch, using all of the original dimensions and
> > physical part locations, so that it would fit into his case, which he
> > had also been re-ording from someone else for over 25 years, and made
> > him a CD ROM with all the necessary files, and even submitted it
> > electronically to several other board houses for him, so that he could
> > continue his legitimate business selling his original design as he has
> > been doing for over 25 years.
> >
> > These things really do happen.
> >
> > On the other hand, I have personally had people "pirate" a design from
> > me and another friend whom I did the design for, at a great loss of
> > revenue for him, not to mention other problems.
> >
> > Original artwork, electronic or otherwise, is in fact copywritable,
> > although very few people ever do it. This sometimes helps, especially if
> > the "pirate"
> > doesn't repackage the pcb, as was the case here, where although the
> > "pirate"
> > did "retape" the pcb, he was stupid enough to make an exact copy of the
> > layout, so that my friend could go after him with a lawyer, for copyrite
> > violation, which he did.
> >
> > There is also the case of what I call the "middle ground", where you may
> > be legitimately purchasing a "module" from a vendor who simply goes
> > belly up and totally disappears, and is unable to continue supplying
> > that module anymore, which may be critical to your end product, and who
> > is not even there anymore to ask permission to reproduce his module, or
> > simply says "go ahead and make your own". This too actually happens,
> > more often than one would expect, especially in todays economy.
> >
> > I sat in on one of the IPC Commitee Meetings at APEX two years ago,
> > where they were trying to finalize a Standard Format for Electronic Data
> > Exchange.
> > I incurred the wrath of Dieter Bergman when I brought up the subject of
> > Security and Ownership, and suggessted that each and every "File
> > Format", should have a place to place an Ownership Statement, along with
> > Non Disclosure and / or Confidentiality Agreements, and specifically for
> > Copywrite information. There were a few people at the meeting that
> > seemed to agree, but Dieter didn't want to spend any time on the
> > subject, so it "fell by the wayside". I was on the Commitee (CAMX)
> > "emailing list" for a while, but was conveinently dropped in due course.
> >
> > I would highly recommend that everyone in the design business start
> > thinking about the issue of Ownership, and Copywrite, and other
> > Priprietary Rights, when it comes to their Designs, and specifically
> > with respect to things such as "Gerber Files", and other types of files
> > containing "Design Data", and specifically think about including
> > "Statements" regarding such "Files"
> > within the "files" themselves, where ever possible, and specifically
> > within other documents such as a Purchase Order..
> >
> > Years ago we always used to have such statements "printed" in the
> > standard "Company Title Block" on the standard pre-printed vellum we
> > used for all of our drawings, or have a "Confidentiality Statement" in
> > small print in one of the corners of each drawing. Many times this has
> > been carried over to "Electronic Drawings", but only very rarely has
> > this ever been done with actual "files" themselves. I would recommend
> > that all in this "forum" give a little thought to what they can do
> > within their respective companies, to protect themselves. I would
> > minimumally recommend including a text file in your standard "zipped"
> > manufacturing file package that you send to the board house or assembly
> > house, stating something to the effect that "All files contained herein
> > are Confidential and Proprietaty to John Doe Co., owner of said files,
> > and are only provided to enable manufacture of such and such,
> > specifically and only for John Doe Co., and their representatives, blah
> > blah blah, etc., etc., etc., ... and that such files shall remain the
> > Intellectual, and Physical, and Electronic Property of John Doe Co., ...
> >
> > Point being, that you should rethink about how you and /or your company
> > and /or the company you work for, can cover your own a##, and retain
> > ownership of your own intellectual property, in the event that you need
> > to.
> >
> > This is especially true for any designs or files that go "off-shore",
> > for "off-shore manufacturing". I won't mention any names or specific
> > countries here, so as not to offend anyone in particular, but I am sure
> > that everyone has heard a horror story or two, where the company doing
> > the "off-shore manufacturing", ended up selling the product themselves.
> > This too has really happened.
> >
> > If you cover yourself well enough up front, maybe you can prevent your
> > own "designs" from becoming the subject of this type of conversation.
> >
> > And yes, if you can't tell by now, I think that this is a very
> > appropriate topic of conversation for this forum.
> >
> > Specifically, I would wonder how others have dealt with, or would deal
> > with, what I have called the "middle ground" issue above. I have
> > actually encountered this problem, where I have actually had to do
> > "reverse engineering" myself, when a supplied ceased to exist.
> >
> > And in answer to the original question on this subject, yes,
> > multilayered boards can in fact be "reverse engineered".
> >
> > JaMi Smith
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:25 AM
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
> >
> >
> > Then why is the design data, schematics, board files, gerbers, not
> > available? If nothing else, you should know where the board was
> > fabricated. The fabricator will have a record of the gerber files used.
> >
> > Scott McMorrow
> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > 121 North River Drive
> > Narragansett, RI 02882
> > (401) 284-1827 Business
> > (401) 284-1840 Fax
> >
> > http://www.teraspeed.com
> >
> > Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> >
> >
> >
> > Kedar P Apte wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Steve,
> >> I was expecting this Question - never mind
> >> I am not in that business -
> >> I think this answer is quiet straight forward and simple to
> >>
> > understand.
> >
> >> Regards,
> >> Kedar
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of steve weir
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:31 PM
> >> To: kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
> >>
> >>
> >> Are you asking for help finding tools so you can steal someone else'
> >> design? Who helps a thief?
> >>
> >> If you think that theft is OK can you provide me with Patni's
> >> corporate bank account numbers and access codes? I think there are
> >> many people who might like to out-source funding of their accounts
> >>
> > payable.
> >
> >> Steve.
> >> At 03:33 AM 5/18/2006, Kedar P Apte wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi All Gurus,
> >>> I want some info or guidance about reverse engineering a multi
> >>>
> > Layered
> > PCB.
> >
> >>> Can there be any way, method, tool, vendor who can get
> >>>
> > gerbers/netlist
> > out
> >
> >>> of a multilayered PCB.
> >>>
> >>> May be by x-ray method or any other way.
> >>>
> >>> I have a PCB with multiple BGA components and I need to come out with
> >>>
> > it's
> >
> >>> schematic.
> >>>
> >>> I need information about how to do this task.
> >>>
> >>> Can you please provide me the different ways available if any..
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Kedar
> >>>
> >>> http://www.patni.com
> >>> World-Wide Partnerships. World-Class Solutions.
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