[SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering

  • From: "JaMi Smith" <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:29:20 -0700

Paul,

Nor quite sure what you are referring me to ScanCAD for.

I went to the link provided, and saw a lot of services offered, many of
which we all do, but none that particularly caught my eye.

What were you specifically thinking of?

JaMi


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Gingras" <paul@xxxxxxx>
To: <jamismith@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <Bill.Loving@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering


>
> OK ... OK!!!! AND
>
> Yes there are automated tools to do this contact Scancad  at
www.scancad.com
> Bill Loving would be more than happy to help you!!!!
>
> PAUL
>
> Paul J Gingras
> KAW USA, LTD.    "Real People .... Real Solutions"
> Voice: 603 886 8711 x200    Fax: 603 881 8763   Cell: 603 305 1475
> Email: paul@xxxxxxx   Web: www.kaw.com
> 39 Simon St. Bldg.#4    Nashua, NH 03060
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On
> Behalf Of JaMi Smith
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 2:53 PM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: JaMi Smith
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>
> It is not always true that the fab data on an old design is available,
even
> from the board house . . .
> I have had board houses go out of business and simply close their doors,
> without any notice to their customers or leaving any contact data.
>
> I have actually had to recreate a small double sided board with less than
20
> components for a friend who has been re-ordering the same boards for over
25
> years, from the same board house, that went out of business before he
could
> make a final buy, from original film shot from a hand taped artwork, where
> all that he could lay his hands on was film - there never were Gerbers.
The
> board house closed it's doors, and I re-did the board for him from
scratch,
> using all of the original dimensions and physical part locations, so that
it
> would fit into his case, which he had also been re-ording from someone
else
> for over 25 years, and made him a CD ROM with all the necessary files, and
> even submitted it electronically to several other board houses for him, so
> that he could continue his legitimate business selling his original design
> as he has been doing for over 25 years.
>
> These things really do happen.
>
> On the other hand, I have personally had people "pirate" a design from me
> and another friend whom I did the design for, at a great loss of revenue
for
> him, not to mention other problems.
>
> Original artwork, electronic or otherwise, is in fact copywritable,
although
> very few people ever do it. This sometimes helps, especially if the
"pirate"
> doesn't repackage the pcb, as was the case here, where although the
"pirate"
> did "retape" the pcb, he was stupid enough to make an exact copy of the
> layout, so that my friend could go after him with a lawyer, for copyrite
> violation, which he did.
>
> There is also the case of what I call the "middle ground", where you may
be
> legitimately purchasing a "module" from a vendor who simply goes belly up
> and totally disappears, and is unable to continue supplying that module
> anymore, which may be critical to your end product, and who is not even
> there anymore to ask permission to reproduce his module, or simply says
"go
> ahead and make your own". This too actually happens, more often than one
> would expect, especially in todays economy.
>
> I sat in on one of the IPC Commitee Meetings at APEX two years ago, where
> they were trying to finalize a Standard Format for Electronic Data
Exchange.
> I incurred the wrath of Dieter Bergman when I brought up the subject of
> Security and Ownership, and suggessted that each and every "File Format",
> should have a place to place an Ownership Statement, along with Non
> Disclosure and / or Confidentiality Agreements, and specifically for
> Copywrite information. There were a few people at the meeting that seemed
to
> agree, but Dieter didn't want to spend any time on the subject, so it
"fell
> by the wayside". I was on the Commitee (CAMX) "emailing list" for a while,
> but was conveinently dropped in due course.
>
> I would highly recommend that everyone in the design business start
thinking
> about the issue of Ownership, and Copywrite, and other Priprietary Rights,
> when it comes to their Designs, and specifically with respect to things
such
> as "Gerber Files", and other types of files containing "Design Data", and
> specifically think about including "Statements" regarding such "Files"
> within the "files" themselves, where ever possible, and specifically
within
> other documents such as a Purchase Order..
>
> Years ago we always used to have such statements "printed" in the standard
> "Company Title Block" on the standard pre-printed vellum we used for all
of
> our drawings, or have a "Confidentiality Statement" in small print in one
of
> the corners of each drawing. Many times this has been carried over to
> "Electronic Drawings", but only very rarely has this ever been done with
> actual "files" themselves. I would recommend that all in this "forum" give
a
> little thought to what they can do within their respective companies, to
> protect themselves. I would minimumally recommend including a text file in
> your standard "zipped" manufacturing file package that you send to the
board
> house or assembly house, stating something to the effect that "All files
> contained herein are Confidential and Proprietaty to John Doe Co., owner
of
> said files, and are only provided to enable manufacture of such and such,
> specifically and only for John Doe Co., and their representatives, blah
blah
> blah, etc., etc., etc.,  ... and that such files shall remain the
> Intellectual, and Physical, and Electronic Property of John Doe Co., ...
>
> Point being, that you should rethink about how you and /or your company
and
> /or the company you work for, can cover your own a##, and retain ownership
> of your own intellectual property, in the event that you need to.
>
> This is especially true for any designs or files that go "off-shore", for
> "off-shore manufacturing". I won't mention any names or specific countries
> here, so as not to offend anyone in particular, but I am sure that
everyone
> has heard a horror story or two, where the company doing the "off-shore
> manufacturing", ended up selling the product themselves. This too has
really
> happened.
>
> If you cover yourself well enough up front, maybe you can prevent your own
> "designs" from becoming the subject of this type of conversation.
>
> And yes, if you can't tell by now, I think that this is a very appropriate
> topic of conversation for this forum.
>
> Specifically, I would wonder how others have dealt with, or would deal
with,
> what I have called the "middle ground" issue above. I have actually
> encountered this problem, where I have actually had to do "reverse
> engineering" myself, when a supplied ceased to exist.
>
> And in answer to the original question on this subject, yes, multilayered
> boards can in fact be "reverse engineered".
>
> JaMi Smith
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:25 AM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
>
>
> Then why is the design data, schematics, board files, gerbers, not
> available? If nothing else, you should know where the board was
> fabricated.  The fabricator will have a record of the gerber files used.
>
> Scott McMorrow
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
> TeraspeedR is the registered service mark of
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>
>
>
> Kedar P Apte wrote:
> > Hi Steve,
> > I was expecting this Question - never mind
> > I am not in that business -
> > I think this answer is quiet straight forward and simple to understand.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kedar
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of steve weir
> > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:31 PM
> > To: kedar.apte@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB Reverse Engineering
> >
> >
> > Are you asking for help finding tools so you can steal someone else'
> > design?  Who helps a thief?
> >
> > If you think that theft is OK can you provide me with Patni's
> > corporate bank account numbers and access codes?  I think there are
> > many people who might like to out-source funding of their accounts
> payable.
> >
> >
> > Steve.
> > At 03:33 AM 5/18/2006, Kedar P Apte wrote:
> >
> >> Hi All Gurus,
> >> I want some info or guidance about reverse engineering a multi Layered
> PCB.
> >>
> >> Can there be any way, method, tool, vendor who can get gerbers/netlist
> out
> >> of a multilayered PCB.
> >>
> >> May be by x-ray method or any other way.
> >>
> >> I have a PCB with multiple BGA components and I need to come out with
> it's
> >> schematic.
> >>
> >> I need information about how to do this task.
> >>
> >> Can you please provide me the different ways available if any..
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kedar
> >>
> >> http://www.patni.com
> >> World-Wide Partnerships. World-Class Solutions.
> >> _____________________________________________________________________
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