[SI-LIST] Re: Mixed-mode impedance matrix

  • From: "Zhou, Xingling \(Mick\)" <xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "Xilei Liu" <xileil@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:34:17 -0400

 Celine,

Thanks,=20

I agree with what you said about S, Smm and Z.
Is the conversion from S to Z linear? No, even for a simple network. I
think this is the problem, not as simple as I thought.=20

Best regards,

Mick

-----Original Message-----
From: Xilei Liu [mailto:xileil@xxxxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:29 PM
To: Zhou, Xingling (Mick); scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Mixed-mode impedance matrix

Mick,
The S-parameters describe the energy conservation, which depends on the
reference impedance; and the Z-impedance describe the relationship
between voltage and current, which is the nature of the structure.
Hence, I think no matter what mode it is, either d/c, even/odd, as the
definitions are clear,  the conversions can be derived from the input
power, voltage, current, and the reference impedance. In another word,
the basic relationships such as S11=3DV-/V+|a2=3D0 and Z=3DV/I are =
always
true.  Perhaps the following papers are worthy of reading :

"B. Noureddine and B.K Ammar. Frequency- and time-domain analyses of
nonuniform lossy coupled transmission lines with linear and nonlinear
termina-
tions. IEEE Transactions on Microwave Theory and Techniques, 2000"

"J.E. Schutt-Aine and R. Mittra. Scattering parameter transient analysis
of transmission lines loaded with nonlinear terminations. IEEE
Transactions on Microwave Theory and Techniques, 1988"

Celine


>From: "Zhou, Xingling (Mick)" <xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx
>To: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>CC: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Mixed-mode impedance matrix
>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:05:09 -0400
>
>  Scott,
>Thanks for your advice.=3D20
>However, as I asked, does this mathematical operation tell us anything?
>For example, can we even say,
>Vdd=3D3DZss*Idd? By looking into the mixed mode S-matrix, I doult the=20
>equation is true in general.  If so, is it meaningful by doing the
math?
>And how can we apply it to designs?
>
>Mick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott McMorrow [mailto:scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20
>Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:30 PM
>To: Zhou, Xingling (Mick)
>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Mixed-mode impedance matrix
>
>Mick
>
>If you want pure differential Z then all you need to do is to convert=20
>the mixed mode S-parameters from the differential/differential quadrant

>to a Z matrix.
>
>
>Scott
>
>Scott McMorrow
>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>121 North River Drive
>Narragansett, RI 02882
>(401) 284-1827 Business
>(401) 284-1840 Fax
>
>http://www.teraspeed.com
>
>Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting=20
>Group LLC
>
>
>
>Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote:
> > Hi,gurus,
> >
> > I was asked to simulate differential Z. It was obviously motivated=20
> > by=3D20 mixed mode S parameter theory. So strictly speaking, I need =
to

> > convert
>
> > mixed-mode S to Z. I remember somebody asked the same question=20
> > last=3D20 year.
> > As we know, the mixed-mode S parameter theory is =
well-establised=3D20=20
> > (generalized by Andrea Ferrero in 2005).  However, I don't know=20
> > any=3D20 mixed mode Z.=3D3D20
> >
> > 1. Some engineers do the so-called pure mode conversion, either=20
> > diff=3D20 or common modes. If so, what do we know about the c-d/d-c=20
> > mode
>conversion?
> > Something is missing here? Of course, mathematically you can do it.
> > 2. Is it possible or meaningful to define the mixed-mode Z? We need=20
> > a=3D20 reference impedance to do any S-Z converison, what is it for=20
> > the d-c=3D20 part?
> >
> > What is the latest development in theory other than some =
personal=3D20

> > practices? I mean we need a solid foundation to do it. Any
literature?
>
> > I think if the conversion can be defined, we must convert the whole=20
> > S=3D20 into Z, not piece by piece (so-called pure mode conversion).=20
> > Otherwise
>
> > the information is incomplete?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mick
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