[SI-LIST] Re: Inserion loss of fr4 , 50 ohm trace .

  • From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:05:46 -0800

There is no single number answer.  You need to specify a particular 
material and ply.

Steve.
On 11/25/2013 11:52 AM, 126 wrote:
> Hello everyone
>
> If the PCB works at 20Ghz, how much is loss tan of FR4 ?
>
> Thank u.
>
> 发自我的 iPhone
>
>> 在 Nov 24, 2013，11:18 AM，Hassan O. Ali <hassan@xxxxxxxx> 写道：
>>
>> field in air than in microstrip case. That wouldn't be the case if
>> the gap were small.
>> Hope this doesn't get truncated.
>> Best regards,
>> Hassan.
>> On Sun 11/24/13 10:09 AM , Hassan O. Ali hassan@xxxxxxxx sent:
>> will be more fringing fields in air than in microstrip case. If the
>> gap was narrow, certainly more field will be in the lossy dielectric
>> and that wouldn't help with the loss.
>> Best regards,
>> Hassan.
>> On Sun 11/24/13  9:22 AM , steve weir weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx [1] sent:
>> Hassan are you trying to say that lossy material can help suppress
>>
>> resonant dips, in which case I agree, or are you trying to say
>> something
>> else?
>> Steve.
>>> On 11/24/2013 7:07 AM, Hassan O. Ali wrote:
>>> lossy FR-4 can also help in decreasing the overall loss. It still
>>> remains to be confirmed which of the two loss mechanisms is
>> worse.
>>> BTW, this is the second time I post on the SI-List and I see my
>>> message truncated at the top. Can the list administrator look
>> into
>>> this? I use a webmail tool to send the messages. I've
>> intentionally
>>> added a bunch of  ">" above to see if it can help. For reference,
>>> I've attached below my complete message.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Hassan.
>>> -------
>>> Sunil,
>>> You've received excellent contributions from list members
>> regarding
>>> your  line loss issue. You're experiencing around 2.2dB/inch loss
>>> discrepancy  between measurement and simulation. That huge
>>> discrepancy seems to be  caused by several factors. No single
>> factor
>>> can explain such a huge  discrepancy.
>>>  From the Shlepnev/McMorrow paper (and various cited
>> references),
>>> ENIG  plating should contribute less than 1dB/inch of additional
>> loss
>>> even in  the worst case at the problem frequencies. You may also
>> need
>>> to  double-check your insertion loss curve if you're seeing
>> similar
>>> resonant  behavior at around 2.7GHz. If you do, certainly ENIG
>> could
>>> be an issue.
>>> Incorrect dissipation factor (dielectric loss tangent) of FR-4
>>> suggested  by Istvan is another very probable cause. 0.035 sounds
>> to
>>> be a good  number to use and easily may double your loss. There
>> are
>>> also  substantial material property variations depending on the
>>> supplier.
>>> Scott pointed out another important consideration - excitation
>> and
>>> the  measurement mode. Coplanar waveguide mode may not be the
>> mode
>>> that  you're simulating with. Confirm the mode in HFSS through
>> Port
>>> Field  Display. Also make sure that you've chosen "Solve Inside"
>> at
>>> least for  the line trace and coplanar grounds.
>>> I assume your HFSS model includes a mated coaxial connector. If
>> not,
>>> that's another source of additional unaccounted loss. And
>> depending
>>> on  the type of coaxial connector you're using and the way it was
>>> installed  on the test board, you can have other secondary
>> effects.
>>> For example,  observe if there is an air gap between the
>> connector
>>> body and the PCB  pad it's soldered to. Or check if the connector
>>> ground is well connected  to the PCB ground. Even an air gap of
>> less
>>> than 1 mil can have  significant insertion loss effects
>> especially
>> at
>>> higher frequencies.
>>> Metal surface roughness is also a secondary effect for the
>>> frequencies  of your interest. For normal PCB fab processes I
>> don't
>>> think there is  much surface roughness induced loss at such low
>>> frequencies of your  interest.
>>> As a general comment, for FR-4, it's not always true that a
>> wider
>>> trace  could give you a lower loss. You may need to re-consider
>> your
>>> choice of  dielectric thickness and trace width to achieve a
>> lower
>>> loss solution  for your line impedance target.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Hassan.
>>> On Sun 11/24/13  7:39 AM , Scott McMorrow scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [2]
>> [1] sent:
>>> Ali
>>> All the measurement and simulation data that I've seen for ENIG
>> is
>>> based on microstrip lines.  In the Case of CPW, I expect losses
>> will
>>> be even higher, depending on the substrate thickness.  A CPW
>> design
>>> with a thick substrate will increase the percentage of signal
>> energy
>>> carried in the co-planar air gaps.  Since this is covered with
>>> Nickel, it will necessarily increase the amount of loss
>>> proportionally over microstrip.
>>> Of course, thick substrates also make for difficult
>> measurements,
>>> and the launching of additional modes.
>>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 1:45 AM, Hassan O. Ali  wrote:
>>> discrepancy between measurement and simulation. That huge
>>> discrepancy
>>> seems to be caused by several factors. No single factor can
>> explain
>>> such a huge discrepancy.
>>>   From the Shlepnev/McMorrow paper (and various cited
>> references),
>>> ENIG plating should contribute less than 1dB/inch of additional
>> loss
>>> even in the worst case at the problem frequencies. You may also
>> need
>>> to double-check your insertion loss curve if you're seeing
>> similar
>>> resonant behavior at around 2.7GHz. If you do, certainly ENIG
>> could
>>> be an issue.
>>>   Incorrect dissipation factor (dielectric loss tangent) of FR-4
>>> suggested by Istvan is another very probable cause. 0.035
>> sounds
>> to
>>> be a good number to use and easily may double your loss. There
>> are
>>> also substantial material property variations depending on the
>>> supplier.
>>>   Scott pointed out another important consideration - excitation
>> and
>>> the measurement mode. Coplanar waveguide mode may not be the
>> mode
>>> that you're simulating with. Confirm the mode in HFSS through
>> Port
>>> Field Display. Also make sure that you've chosen "Solve Inside"
>> at
>>> least for the line trace and coplanar grounds.
>>>   I assume your HFSS model includes a mated coaxial connector.
>> If
>>> not,
>>> that's another source of additional unaccounted loss. And
>> depending
>>> on
>>> the type of coaxial connector you're using and the way it was
>>> installed on the test board, you can have other secondary
>> effects.
>>> For example, observe if there is an air gap between the
>> connector
>>> body and the PCB pad it's soldered to. Or check if the
>> connector
>>> ground is well connected to the PCB ground. Even an air gap of
>> less
>>> than 1 mil can have significant insertion loss effects
>> especially at
>>> higher frequencies.
>>>   Metal surface roughness is also a secondary effect for the
>>> frequencies of your interest. For normal PCB fab processes I
>> don't
>>> think there is much surface roughness induced loss at such low
>>> frequencies of your interest.
>>>   As a general comment, for FR-4, it's not always true that a
>> wider
>>> trace could give you a lower loss. You may need to re-consider
>> your
>>> choice of dielectric thickness and trace width to achieve a
>> lower
>>> loss solution for your line impedance target.
>>>   Best regards,
>>>   Hassan.
>>>   On Sat 11/23/13 10:50 AM , Scott McMorrow scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [3]
>> [2] [2]
>>> sent:
>>>   Steve
>>>   there is only one simulator that I know of that can simulate
>> ENIG
>>>   correctly. It is Simberian Simbeor, where Yuriy Shlepnev
>> introduced
>>> the
>>>   necessary Landau-Lifshits Ferromagnetic dispersion model based
>> on
>>> our
>>>   research.
>>>   Nickel models that I have seen in other simulators uses only
>>> magnetic
>>>   permeability, which will miss the dispersive resonance between
>> 2
>>> and
>>> 3.5
>>>   GHz, centered around 2.7 GHz.
>>>   Scott
>>>   Scott
>>>>   On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:26 AM, steve weir  wrote:
>>>> The demon nickel impact should have shown up in your
>> simulation.
>>> Didn't
>>>> you include the Ni and Au of the ENIG surface finish in your
>>> model?
>>>> Steve.
>>>>> On 11/23/2013 8:05 AM, sunil bharadwaz wrote:
>>>>> Thanks Scott !! Yes , ENIG was used . I'am not suspecting
>> the
>>> CPW , as
>>>> the 50 ohms
>>>>> is showing correctly when tested with VNA .
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Sunil.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On , sunil bharadwaz  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Bala !! I will try that . Yes , the cable losses
>> were
>>> already
>>>> factored in & there are no Via's
>>>>> on the RF line .
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:15 PM, bala
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunil,
>>>>> I would recommend to consider copper roughness and double
>> check
>>> your via
>>>> and coplanar modeling in your simulation.I believe you
>> considered
>>> the loss
>>>> of your measurement cable.or simply generate s-parameter
>> model
>>> from VNA,
>>>> check symmetric and passivity ,put that model in your sim
>> setup
>>> and see
>>>> whats the loss.You shall definitely  get an idea.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> bala
>>>>>> On 23 Nov 2013 18:33, "sunil bharadwaz"
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi friends ,
>>>>>> We are designing a dual band receiver ( 2.4 Ghz & 5.5 Ghz
>> ) on
>>> a Fr4
>>>> substrate .
>>>>>> The length of the 50 ohm RF trace ( CPW - 15 mil trace
>> width &
>>> 18 mil
>>>> spacing to ground ) ,
>>>>>> is approximately 5 cms .We have simulated this 5 cms long
>> CPW
>>> trace on
>>>> HFSS using DK of
>>>>>> 4.4 & DF  of 0.018 . The loss reported was about 1.6 dB .
>>>>>> We have received the actual board , which shows about 6
>> dB
>>> loss
>>> for the
>>>> same trace (actual measurement on VNA)
>>>>>> Measured the 50 ohm trace with TDR . It shows about 53 to
>> 54
>>> ohms . The
>>>> fab report is also
>>>>>> in sync with the measurement on the impedance front .The
>> test
>>> coupon (
>>>> from fab  )also shows
>>>>>> the right impedance .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why are we seeing such a huge insertion loss ? The DF of
>> 0.018
>>> seems to
>>>> be correct .
>>>>>> I have double checked this number , with the fab .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can some one ( pls ) explain the inconsistency between
>> the
>>> simulated &
>>>> actual results  ?
>>>>>> Best Regards
>>>>>> Sunil.Bh
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>> [16] http://www.ipblox.com
>> [17]
>>
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
>>
>> [18]
>>
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [20] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
>> field
>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>> For help:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [21] with 'help' in the Subject field
>> List forum  is accessible at:
>>                http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>> List archives are viewable at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>   http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [2]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [3]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [4]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [5]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [6]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [7]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [8] http://www.ipblox.com
>> [9]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [10]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [11]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [12]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [13]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [14]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [15]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [16]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [17] http://www.ipblox.com
>> [18]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [19]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [20]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>> [21]
>> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>
>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>
>> For help:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>
>>
>> List forum  is accessible at:
>>               http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>
>> List archives are viewable at:
>>        //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>
>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>        http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum  is accessible at:
>                 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
>               //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>   
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>               http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>    
>
>


-- 
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
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MS 34689
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www.ipblox.com

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or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field


List forum  is accessible at:
               http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list

List archives are viewable at:     
                //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
 
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

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