[SI-LIST] Re: Inserion loss of fr4 , 50 ohm trace .

  • From: 126 <wangwensong1986@xxxxxxx>
  • To: "hassan@xxxxxxxx" <hassan@xxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:52:38 -0500

Hello everyone

If the PCB works at 20Ghz, how much is loss tan of FR4 ?

Thank u. 

发自我的 iPhone

> 在 Nov 24, 2013，11:18 AM，Hassan O. Ali <hassan@xxxxxxxx> 写道：
> 
> field in air than in microstrip case. That wouldn't be the case if
> the gap were small.
> Hope this doesn't get truncated.
> Best regards,
> Hassan.
> On Sun 11/24/13 10:09 AM , Hassan O. Ali hassan@xxxxxxxx sent:
> will be more fringing fields in air than in microstrip case. If the 
> gap was narrow, certainly more field will be in the lossy dielectric
> and that wouldn't help with the loss. 
> Best regards, 
> Hassan. 
> On Sun 11/24/13  9:22 AM , steve weir weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx [1] sent: 
> Hassan are you trying to say that lossy material can help suppress 
> 
> resonant dips, in which case I agree, or are you trying to say 
> something   
> else?  
> Steve.  
>> On 11/24/2013 7:07 AM, Hassan O. Ali wrote:  
>> lossy FR-4 can also help in decreasing the overall loss. It still
> 
>> remains to be confirmed which of the two loss mechanisms is
> worse. 
>> BTW, this is the second time I post on the SI-List and I see my
> 
>> message truncated at the top. Can the list administrator look
> into 
>> this? I use a webmail tool to send the messages. I've
> intentionally  
>> added a bunch of  ">" above to see if it can help. For reference,
> 
>> I've attached below my complete message.  
>> Best regards,  
>> Hassan.  
>> -------  
>> Sunil,  
>> You've received excellent contributions from list members
> regarding  
>> your  line loss issue. You're experiencing around 2.2dB/inch loss
> 
>> discrepancy  between measurement and simulation. That huge  
>> discrepancy seems to be  caused by several factors. No single
> factor  
>> can explain such a huge  discrepancy.  
>> From the Shlepnev/McMorrow paper (and various cited
> references), 
>> ENIG  plating should contribute less than 1dB/inch of additional
> loss  
>> even in  the worst case at the problem frequencies. You may also
> need  
>> to  double-check your insertion loss curve if you're seeing
> similar  
>> resonant  behavior at around 2.7GHz. If you do, certainly ENIG
> could  
>> be an issue.  
>> Incorrect dissipation factor (dielectric loss tangent) of FR-4
> 
>> suggested  by Istvan is another very probable cause. 0.035 sounds
> 
> to  
>> be a good  number to use and easily may double your loss. There 
> are  
>> also  substantial material property variations depending on the  
>> supplier.  
>> Scott pointed out another important consideration - excitation
> and  
>> the  measurement mode. Coplanar waveguide mode may not be the
> mode 
>> that  you're simulating with. Confirm the mode in HFSS through
> Port  
>> Field  Display. Also make sure that you've chosen "Solve Inside"
> at  
>> least for  the line trace and coplanar grounds.  
>> I assume your HFSS model includes a mated coaxial connector. If
> 
> not,  
>> that's another source of additional unaccounted loss. And
> depending  
>> on  the type of coaxial connector you're using and the way it was
> 
>> installed  on the test board, you can have other secondary
> effects.  
>> For example,  observe if there is an air gap between the
> connector 
>> body and the PCB  pad it's soldered to. Or check if the connector
> 
>> ground is well connected  to the PCB ground. Even an air gap of
> less  
>> than 1 mil can have  significant insertion loss effects
> especially 
> at  
>> higher frequencies.  
>> Metal surface roughness is also a secondary effect for the  
>> frequencies  of your interest. For normal PCB fab processes I
> don't  
>> think there is  much surface roughness induced loss at such low  
>> frequencies of your  interest.  
>> As a general comment, for FR-4, it's not always true that a
> wider  
>> trace  could give you a lower loss. You may need to re-consider
> your  
>> choice of  dielectric thickness and trace width to achieve a
> lower 
>> loss solution  for your line impedance target.  
>> Best regards,  
>> Hassan.  
>> On Sun 11/24/13  7:39 AM , Scott McMorrow scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [2] 
> [1] sent:  
>> Ali  
>> All the measurement and simulation data that I've seen for ENIG
> 
> is  
>> based on microstrip lines.  In the Case of CPW, I expect losses
> will  
>> be even higher, depending on the substrate thickness.  A CPW
> design  
>> with a thick substrate will increase the percentage of signal
> energy  
>> carried in the co-planar air gaps.  Since this is covered with  
>> Nickel, it will necessarily increase the amount of loss  
>> proportionally over microstrip.  
>> Of course, thick substrates also make for difficult
> measurements,  
>> and the launching of additional modes.  
>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 1:45 AM, Hassan O. Ali  wrote:  
>> discrepancy between measurement and simulation. That huge  
>> discrepancy  
>> seems to be caused by several factors. No single factor can
> explain  
>> such a huge discrepancy.  
>>  From the Shlepnev/McMorrow paper (and various cited
> references),  
>> ENIG plating should contribute less than 1dB/inch of additional
> 
> loss  
>> even in the worst case at the problem frequencies. You may also
> 
> need  
>> to double-check your insertion loss curve if you're seeing
> similar  
>> resonant behavior at around 2.7GHz. If you do, certainly ENIG
> could  
>> be an issue.  
>>  Incorrect dissipation factor (dielectric loss tangent) of FR-4
> 
>> suggested by Istvan is another very probable cause. 0.035
> sounds 
> to  
>> be a good number to use and easily may double your loss. There 
> are  
>> also substantial material property variations depending on the
> 
>> supplier.  
>>  Scott pointed out another important consideration - excitation
> 
> and  
>> the measurement mode. Coplanar waveguide mode may not be the
> mode  
>> that you're simulating with. Confirm the mode in HFSS through
> Port  
>> Field Display. Also make sure that you've chosen "Solve Inside"
> 
> at  
>> least for the line trace and coplanar grounds.  
>>  I assume your HFSS model includes a mated coaxial connector.
> If 
>> not,  
>> that's another source of additional unaccounted loss. And
> depending  
>> on  
>> the type of coaxial connector you're using and the way it was  
>> installed on the test board, you can have other secondary
> effects.  
>> For example, observe if there is an air gap between the
> connector  
>> body and the PCB pad it's soldered to. Or check if the
> connector 
>> ground is well connected to the PCB ground. Even an air gap of
> less  
>> than 1 mil can have significant insertion loss effects
> especially at  
>> higher frequencies.  
>>  Metal surface roughness is also a secondary effect for the  
>> frequencies of your interest. For normal PCB fab processes I
> don't  
>> think there is much surface roughness induced loss at such low
> 
>> frequencies of your interest.  
>>  As a general comment, for FR-4, it's not always true that a
> wider  
>> trace could give you a lower loss. You may need to re-consider
> your  
>> choice of dielectric thickness and trace width to achieve a
> lower  
>> loss solution for your line impedance target.  
>>  Best regards,  
>>  Hassan.  
>>  On Sat 11/23/13 10:50 AM , Scott McMorrow scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [3] 
> [2] [2]  
>> sent:  
>>  Steve  
>>  there is only one simulator that I know of that can simulate
> ENIG  
>>  correctly. It is Simberian Simbeor, where Yuriy Shlepnev
> introduced  
>> the  
>>  necessary Landau-Lifshits Ferromagnetic dispersion model based
> 
> on  
>> our  
>>  research.  
>>  Nickel models that I have seen in other simulators uses only  
>> magnetic  
>>  permeability, which will miss the dispersive resonance between
> 
> 2  
>> and  
>> 3.5  
>>  GHz, centered around 2.7 GHz.  
>>  Scott  
>>  Scott  
>>>  On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 11:26 AM, steve weir  wrote:  
>>> The demon nickel impact should have shown up in your
> simulation.  
>> Didn't  
>>> you include the Ni and Au of the ENIG surface finish in your
> 
>> model?  
>>> 
>>> Steve.  
>>>> On 11/23/2013 8:05 AM, sunil bharadwaz wrote:  
>>>> Thanks Scott !! Yes , ENIG was used . I'am not suspecting
> the  
>> CPW , as  
>>> the 50 ohms  
>>>> is showing correctly when tested with VNA .  
>>>> Regards  
>>>> Sunil.  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On , sunil bharadwaz  wrote:  
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Bala !! I will try that . Yes , the cable losses
> were  
>> already  
>>> factored in & there are no Via's  
>>>> on the RF line .  
>>>> 
>>>> Regards  
>>>> Sunil  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:15 PM, bala  
>>>> wrote:  
>>>> 
>>>> Sunil,  
>>>> I would recommend to consider copper roughness and double
> check  
>> your via  
>>> and coplanar modeling in your simulation.I believe you
> considered  
>> the loss  
>>> of your measurement cable.or simply generate s-parameter
> model  
>> from VNA,  
>>> check symmetric and passivity ,put that model in your sim
> setup  
>> and see  
>>> whats the loss.You shall definitely  get an idea.  
>>>> Regards  
>>>> bala  
>>>>> On 23 Nov 2013 18:33, "sunil bharadwaz"  
>>>> wrote:  
>>>> 
>>>> Hi friends ,  
>>>>> We are designing a dual band receiver ( 2.4 Ghz & 5.5 Ghz
> 
> ) on  
>> a Fr4  
>>> substrate .  
>>>>> 
>>>>> The length of the 50 ohm RF trace ( CPW - 15 mil trace
> width &  
>> 18 mil  
>>> spacing to ground ) ,  
>>>>> is approximately 5 cms .We have simulated this 5 cms long
> 
> CPW  
>> trace on  
>>> HFSS using DK of  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 4.4 & DF  of 0.018 . The loss reported was about 1.6 dB .
> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> We have received the actual board , which shows about 6
> dB 
>> loss  
>> for the  
>>> same trace (actual measurement on VNA)  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Measured the 50 ohm trace with TDR . It shows about 53 to
> 
> 54  
>> ohms . The  
>>> fab report is also  
>>>>> in sync with the measurement on the impedance front .The
> test  
>> coupon (  
>>> from fab  )also shows  
>>>>> the right impedance .  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why are we seeing such a huge insertion loss ? The DF of
> 0.018  
>> seems to  
>>> be correct .  
>>>>> I have double checked this number , with the fab .  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can some one ( pls ) explain the inconsistency between
> the 
>> simulated &  
>>> actual results  ?  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best Regards  
>>>>> Sunil.Bh  
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>>> 
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> [3] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [4] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [5] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [6] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [7] http://www.ipblox.com 
> [8] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [9] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [10] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [11] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [12] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [13] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [14] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [15] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [16] http://www.ipblox.com 
> [17] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> [18] 
> 
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose('si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx','','','')
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> To unsubscribe from si-list: 
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [20] with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject
> field 
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: 
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list 
> For help: 
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [21] with 'help' in the Subject field 
> List forum  is accessible at: 
>               http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list 
> List archives are viewable at:      
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list 
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: 
>  http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [2]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [3]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [4]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [5]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [6]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [7]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [8] http://www.ipblox.com
> [9]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [10]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [11]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [12]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [13]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [14]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [15]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [16]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [17] http://www.ipblox.com
> [18]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [19]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [20]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> [21]
> http://webmail.magma.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(\'si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx\',\'\',\'\',\'\')
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> 
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> 
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
> 
> 
> List forum  is accessible at:
>              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
> 
> List archives are viewable at:     
>       //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> 
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>       http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> 
> 

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To unsubscribe from si-list:
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or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list

For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field


List forum  is accessible at:
               http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list

List archives are viewable at:     
                //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
 
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
                http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

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