[SI-LIST] Re: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: Re: Straw poll and call for comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as Wikipedia?
- From: "Tom Dagostino" <tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <owner-ibis@xxxxxxx>, <jon.n.powell@xxxxxxxxx>, <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 15:43:17 -0700
This on the surface looks like a good idea but in reality can get very
complicated. It is not a simple does the model pass IBIS Check or not. For
example, my criteria when I release a model is no unexplained warning and no
errors from the IBIS check. But there are times when a warning is appropriate
for the model. For example a 50 Ohm pulldown termination will produce more
current in the active region of a receiver than the IBIS check allows if my
memory serves me correctly. This will generate a warning in IBIS. But it is a
perfectly appropriate warning that should be documented in the model. If
somebody does a blanket check of all models on Manufacture X web page and
doesn't understand or analyze the results then bogus information is posted on
those models.
Some companies have very strict rules about what gets posted on web pages. For
example I've run across mandates where all file names, including IBIS files,
have to be in upper case -- IBISMODEL.IBS, a clear violation of the standard,
may generate an error but very easy to fix and many SI simulators would not
care. I've also seen companies that required all models to be posted as HTML
files. They don't parse very well. But it is simple to copy the data and put
it into a text format and have a valid model.
And then there is misapplications of the models that may cause users to
complain about a model. Two classics I've seen many times are trying to use an
ECL model with a differential termination or using an open drain model with a
load to ground.
I'm not excusing some of the outright bad models that are out there. I've seen
some very interesting interpretation of the specification, input models with VT
curves, IV tables with single points in them, clamp tables with 10e100+
Amperes, ECL models that don't use the ECL designator, etc.
They need to be found and fixed and I've done more than my share of that.
So, given the above and to be fair to the company's models are being reviewed,
who is going to review the reviewers? It would be nice if the community would
look at every model review and validate that review but who has the time to do
that?
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed(R) Labs
13610 SW Harness Lane
Beaverton, OR 97008
503-430-1065
503-430-1285 FAX
tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
401-284-1827
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ibis-users@xxxxxxx [mailto:owner-ibis-users@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:23 PM
To: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx; owner-ibis@xxxxxxx; jon.n.powell@xxxxxxxxx;
weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Bob Ross; ibis@xxxxxxx; ibis-users@xxxxxxx
Subject: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for
comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
for many models users cannot legally share information such as ibischk scores.
The owner of the website would be legally responsible for policing each and
every usage agreement. This is why independent companies provide this service.
We keep an updated ibis model links page on our website that bob Ross manages
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: <colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:04:54
To: <jon.n.powell@xxxxxxxxx>; <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <ibis@xxxxxxx>; <ibis-users@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [IBIS] RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource
IBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
Hi Jon,
Yes, IP and updates are an issue, so the plan is to let IC vendors build a
directory of links and/or "how-to-get-the-model" instructions, not the models
themselves. Users will add reviews and ratings and IBISCHK scores.
-- Colin Warwick
Signal Integrity Product Marketing Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
blog http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Powell, Jon N
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 11:48 AM
To: steve weir; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; ibis@xxxxxxx; ibis-users@xxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
Isn't there also a legal issue here?
Who owns the IP or the copyright and who is going to be responsible for
violation of said when a copy is kept in a database?
Jon Powell
EPSD Product SI
?
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of steve weir
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:58 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; ibis@xxxxxxx; ibis-users@xxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
Colin,
Hosting is so cheap as to be a non-issue. Setting up the database
mechanics is not particularly difficult either.
The real cost is in the administration. In my opinion this needs people
willing to serve as librarians who will act as the gate keepers so that
the site is not overrun with junk.
Best Regards,
Steve.
colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks to everyone for the feedback and encouragement :-)
>
> There are several options each with pros and cons
> * Web page with an appointed honorary librarian
> * Wikis e.g. hosted and self-hosted http://www.wikimatrix.org/
> * Discussion forums (bulletin boards) e.g. hosted and self-hosted
> http://www.forummatrix.org/
> * Email reflectors like the si-list //freelists.org
> * Shared document/table like a Google Docs spreadsheet.
> http://docs.google.com/
> * Hybrids of the above like Google Wave http://wave.google.com which they say
> is a "next generation" email/collaboration/documentation tool
>
> Here are some issues with each:
> * Ease-of-use versus functionality: email is easy to use, but email
> reflectors and forums have limited searchablity and it's hard to aggregate
> threads of (possibility duplicative) conversations.
> * WYSIWYG versus markup languages: some wikis and forums require you learn a
> mark up language.
> * "One truth" (conclusion) versus "Let a hundred flowers blossom"
> (conversation) (yes, I do understand the irony of Mao Zedong's imperative):
> ** Wikis attempt to arrive at some sort of consensus between the editors
> on the readers' behalf (although there's usually a discussion page for
> editors behind the "real" page for readers)
> whereas
> ** Discussion Forums let everyone voice their own opinion and each reader
> has to plow through the threads to draw their own conclusion from the
> (possibly heated) conversation.
> * Reputation: How do you hold a contributor accountable for their
> contribution? How exclude spam in?
> * Privacy: How much info to do I have to submit to sign up? As a reader? As a
> writer? How to prevent harvesting of personal info by nefarious agents?
> * History/reversion: How do we track and undo "bad" edits? How to delete
> "bad" postings?
> * Who pays? There are plenty of "free" hosting sites, usually ad-funded. Do
> we want an ad free site by paying to self-hosting fee? If so, how do we split
> the check?
> * Structured versus unstructured: Do you want a rigorous database schema
> (specific column headings/fields for each row/record in (possibly
> interlinked) tables)? Or more free form? If structured, how to come to a
> consensus schema?
> * Who runs the thing? What are the costs and benefits for the admin?
>
> I added a second straw poll to the bottom of:
>
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-directory/
>
> ...so you can vote for your favorite...
>
> Best regards,
>
> -- Colin Warwick
> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Howard Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:00 AM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
>
> Hey Colin,
>
> I think you are on to a good idea. Individual users spend way too much time
> farting around trying to put together good IBIS models. Much of that effort
> seems wasted.
>
> I'd like to see the list include some sort of "user voting" feature so the
> readers of the list could see if other people found the model "useful".
> Some "wiki" type tools allow that kind of feedback and I believe it would be
> crucial, because I believe you will never get an official committee to vet
> the models -- it has to be done through independent user evaluations.
>
> Good luck, and keep plugging on this idea, it's a good one.
>
> Yes, I went to your link and voted.
>
> Best regards,
> Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc.,
> tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@xxxxxxxxxx
> www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications and films
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of steve weir
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 6:09 PM
> To: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS
> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
>
> My view on the usefulness of such a directory all depends on how well the
> directory would be maintained / policed and whether the directory would
> include information that would indicate the model's likely usefulness.
> There are a lot of IBIS ( HSPICE models as well for that matter ), that
> aren't particularly useful. Many have not been verified in any way. Some
> of them do not even parse.
>
> Anyway, if this is going to be undertaken, I would really like to see
> something similar to the way that the FPGA vendors list IP cores.
>
> Target Model Manufacturer
> Target Model Part Number
> Free or pay model
> Model basis: Raw original model, SPICE derived model, Measurement based
> model IBIS version Passed parser or not w/ parser version Model verified or
> not Link to model, or model supplier
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Bottom line on top: Any interest in using and/or contributing to an IBIS
>>
> model directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia? Please vote in this
> informal straw poll:
>
>>
> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-director
> y/
>
>> ...and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread.
>>
>> Backstory: I posted the message below to the IBIS lists, but was
>> disappointed that the response was fairly mute. So, I'm posting it
>> here in the hope it will resonate with si-listers. (If you are also on
>> the IBIS lists, this is a duplicate. Sorry!)
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> -- Colin Warwick
>> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WARWICK,COLIN
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 AM
>> To: IBIS-Interconnect; 'ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
>> Subject: Straw poll and call for comments: Crowdsource IBIS model
>>
> directory by use of a wiki such as wikipedia?
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I get several emails a month from customers asking "Is there an IBIS model
>>
> for XYZ part from ABC IC vendor". I usually point them at:
>
>> http://www.teraspeed.com/ibis_resources.html
>> http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/ibis%20table/models.htm
>>
>> If the info is out-of-date (as is often the case), I ask them to do an
>> advanced Google search like:
>> http://www.google.com/advanced_search?q=IBIS+site:someicvendordomain.c
>> om
>>
>> (replace someicvendordomain.com with the IC vendor's domain,
>> obviously)
>>
>> But I'm wondering if there's a better way than "spray and pray" Googling
>>
> or burdening a single librarian with hundreds of update requests.
>
>> Sooo...How about crowdsourcing?
>>
>> "Crowd-what-ing," you say? Here's a definition from wikipedia:
>>
>> 'Crowdsourcing is a neologistic compound of Crowd and Outsourcing for the
>>
> act of taking tasks traditionally performed by an employee or contractor,
> and outsourcing them to a group of people or community, through an "open
> call" to a large group of people (a crowd) asking for contributions.'
>
>> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing )
>>
>> Specifically, I'm wondering if we should create a table off of the main
>>
> IBIS page on wikipedia:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Output_Buffer_Information_Specifica
>> tion
>>
>> ...(or some other wiki) for IC vendors to update their info themselves. It
>>
> would look something like this prototype I cobbled together:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Woz2/Input_Output_Buffer_Information
>> _Specification/Table_of_IBIS_models
>>
>> Thoughts? Please vote in this informal straw poll:
>>
>> http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com/2010/crowdsource-ibis-models-di
>> rectory/
>>
>> and/or leave a comment there, and/or comment to this thread.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> -- Colin Warwick
>> Signal Integrity Product Manager, Agilent EEsof EDA
>>
>
>
>
--
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
150 N. Center St. #211
Reno, NV 89501
www.ipblox.com
(775) 299-4236 Business
(866) 675-4630 Toll-free
(707) 780-1951 Fax
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Other related posts:
- » [SI-LIST] Re: [IBIS-Users] Re: [IBIS] RE: Re: Straw poll and call for comments: CrowdsourceIBIS model directory by use of a wiki such as Wikipedia? - Tom Dagostino