[SI-LIST] Re: Hspice vs. Eldo
- From: "Chris Cheng" <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:36:32 -0700
In an ideal world, we can have whatever we want.
But in a real world, ask yourself if you are a silicon vendor will you =
willing to :
a) pay extra to get an AMS tool that has nothing to do with your silicon =
design flow
b) invest in the manpower to qualify your internal SPICE (most likely =
HSPICE) model with ELDO or whatever AMS standard
HSPICE with S-parameter or W element is a problematic path to say the =
least. But I can get around it with other tools that can generate =
something HSPICE can feed on and work. That are plenty of free or low =
cost vector fitting tools that can help you get around the S-parameter =
or W-element problem with HSPICE.=20
Ask yourself this question, with all the hype about IBIS 4.2 with SSO, =
how many silicon vendor even border to publish that ?=20
Tool vendors can promise you a lot of things. At the end of the day, it =
is your silicon vendor that has to do it.
And coming from experience from both sides of the table, I have seen =
plenty of customers that demand certain models in HSPICE, IBIS etc and =
just sit on it after they are delivered. I have done audit on usage of =
models after customers received them and surprise surprise less than 10% =
of them are actually simulating anything with them. This is hardly a =
statistic that encourage me to invest in generating extra models.
You may be the busy bee out there that work on simulating every net you =
have with every model you get. But there are plenty of CAD or System =
managers out there that demand this and want that but end up sitting =
with a $100K+ tool and super complicated model accurate down to 1 pico =
second and do nothing about them.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Tom Biggs
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 1:36 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hspice vs. Eldo
If a company doesn't have a dedicated SI person, a tool that is most
useful is not necessarily the 'standard' SPICE. Instead, they will look
for a tool that integrates well with the schematic/board layout process
and is easy to use for all the designers (who only occasionally use the
tool), and has IBIS, SPICE and for the future AMS.
And more than likely there will not be enough budget for more than one
tool. The sacrifice is that encrypted HSPICE models could become
useless. Sometimes with lots of pleading, you can sign lots of NDAs and
get an unencrypted model. Chip companies want to sell chips, so I'm sure
there is going to be more and more pressure on them to provide models
that don't restrict a customer to a tool they may not have and don't
have the budget to go out and get.
This has been discussed before: there should be some sort of encrypted
AMS standard so the industry has something useful to go forward with.
-tom
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Dan Bostan
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:40 AM
To: Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx; fialka113@xxxxxxxxx; scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hspice vs. Eldo
You get what you pay for.
Go for the HSPICE as it is the standard in the Spice SI space.
/dan
----- Original Message ----
From: "Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx" <Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx>
To: fialka113@xxxxxxxxx; scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:53:06 AM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hspice vs. Eldo
When Schedules and Time to Market are important, you can justify the
cost even if the tool is used only a few months a year. When the work
load is high and constant, the ease of use argument gets weaker as you
can better benefit from re-use and scripting and the (re-)learning
curve goes away.
Aubrey Sparkman
Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team Dell, Inc.
Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx
(512) 723-3592
"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what
nobody else has thought." - Jonathan Swift=3D20
=3D20
________________________________
From: Julia Nekrylova [mailto:fialka113@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 12:35 PM
To: Sparkman, Aubrey; scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Hspice vs. Eldo
2) Depends on how constant your work load is. If it is high and
constant, then yes, I would agree with you that 50 % more cost is
easily
justifiable. Btw, Hspice costs 100 % more.
----- Original Message ----
From: "Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx" <Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx>
To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: fialka113@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2007 8:14:00 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hspice vs. Eldo
In addition to Steve and Scott's comments, I would like to add two more
comments:
1) OFTEN, model accuracy is much more important than which simulator
you
use.
2) If you have a choice of simulators, (you don't with encrypted
models)
how important is ease of use? For instance, if one simulator costs 50%
more, but enables you to get 3 times as much done, do you care?
Aubrey Sparkman=3D3D20
Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team=3D3D20
Dell, Inc.=3D3D20
Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx=3D3D20
(512) 723-3592=3D3D20
"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what
nobody else has thought." - Jonathan Swift
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:32 AM
To: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: fialka113@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hspice vs. Eldo
I'd agree with Steve. Usually encrypted models is the deal breaker.
Otherwise, Eldo is technically superior to HSPICE in the handling of
s-parameters.
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com <http://www.teraspeed.com/>=3D20
Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
steve weir wrote:
> Julia, Synopsys has two almost unassailable market advantages with
HSPICE:
>
> *A lot of models are supplied only as encrypted HSPICE models. If
you
> don't have HSPICE you can't play.
> *HSPICE is used for silicon sign-off with a number of fabs.
>
> If either of the above issues are material to you, then the
technical=3D3D20
> merits of one simulator versus another are moot.
>
> Steve
>
> Julia Nekrylova wrote:
> =3D3D20
>> Dear SI professionals,
>> My question is about Eldo vs. Hspice comparisson. With the former
being roughly 2 times cheaper than the later, I wonder if it offers a
similar performance. I've heard that Eldo has an improved t-line
modeling and handles S-parameters in a more advanced fashion. I just
never had a chance to work with Eldo, but pricewise it's a big
difference for a small company like ours.
>>
>> Thanks again for your help,
>> Julia Nekrylova
>>
>> 74ze Engineering
>>
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