Hello Dan, May I ask one more question about how to model two dies in single package? Let's say I set RLC to 0 in individual ibs file, and in the ebd file I can represent traces among PIN(user accessible pins of the package) and NODEs(pins of dies). PIN +--------------------------------*--------+ | | | | +------------------+---+ | | | | | | | NODE | NODE | | +-----*--+ +------*----+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | die 1 | | die 2 | | | | | | | | | +-----*--+ +------*----+ | | | | | | | | chip | +-----------------------------------------+ My question is: where do you include package parasitics for the NODEs which only have connection between two dies, since we set RLC to 0 in individual .ibs file, and .ebd file does not include these traces? +--------------------------------*--------+ | | | | | | | | | +-----*--+ +------*----+ | | | | NODE1 | | | | | *--------* | | | | die 1 | NODE2 | die 2 | | | | | | | | | +-----*--+ +------*----+ | | | | | | | | chip | +-----------------------------------------+ Thanks Lixin ************************* Lixin Lu IC CAD Specialist MOSAID Technologies Inc. 11 Hines Road, Kanata, Ontario Canada K2K 2X1 (613) 599 9539 ext 1638 ************************* |---------+----------------------------> | | "Crain, Dan S" | | | <dan.s.crain@inte| | | l.com> | | | | | | 04/17/03 12:11 PM| | | | |---------+----------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: <Lu@xxxxxxxxxx> | | cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> | | Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Help: how to create IBIS model for a chip which contains two dies | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| My pleasure Lixin. I am happy for the opportunity to give a little back to members of this terrific forum. Best of luck. Rgds, Dan -----Original Message----- From: Lu@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Lu@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:33 AM To: Crain, Dan S Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Help: how to create IBIS model for a chip which contains two dies Hi Dan, Thanks a lot! your email is very helpful. I found some IBIS files from intel which have same setup as you mentioned, maybe you create them:) I'll have a look at the IBIS section about EBD, and ask the package company to see if I may get the EBD file from them, otherwise, I need create it by myself. Again, thanks. Lixin |---------+----------------------------> | | "Crain, Dan S" | | | <dan.s.crain@inte| | | l.com> | | | Sent by: | | | si-list-bounce@fr| | | eelists.org | | | | | | | | | 04/16/03 07:40 PM| | | Please respond to| | | dan.s.crain | | | | |---------+----------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: <Lu@xxxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> | | cc: | | Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Help: how to create IBIS model for a chip which contains two dies | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Hi Lu, I have had success using IBIS version 3.2 and the EBD (electrical board = description -- in section 8) for multiple die/single package products. For my case, I had a CPU and two memory devices vertically stacked and = connected together via a package substrate. The bottom side of the = package substrate had a ball array for attachment/connection to a PCB. = My on-chip topologies looked very similar to your depiction. My final IBIS setup contained the following items: 1) IBIS model for the CPU with package parameters zeroed out 2) IBIS models for the memory devices (also with package params zeroed) 3) An EBD file that described: the package R, L, and C parameters for = each trace; trace lengths; bond-wire RLC params from each die connection = to the substrate; and pin-to-pin-to-pin-to-ball connection mapping = between the stacked devices and the substrate ball. Note, each mini = topology points to the appropriate driver/receiver model in the IBIS = files for the dies. 4) Readme.txt file summarizing how everything fits together for future = users The hardest part of this effort was generating accurate electrical = models for the substrate traces. A good example of this type of IBIS setup can be found on Micron's web = page under SDRAM modules. I learned from this list that several widely = used SI simulators work fine with IBIS/EBD models. Best of luck! Rgds, Dan -----Original Message----- From: Lu@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Lu@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:50 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Help: how to create IBIS model for a chip which contains two dies Hello Guys, I am new to the IBIS model creation. I have some questions about how to create IBIS model for a chip which contains two dies. especially in the following case: There is an I/O buffer in die 1, which connects to another I/O buffer in die 2, then to the pin. +--------------------------------*--------+ | | | | +------------------+---+ | | | | | | | | | | +-----*--+ +------*----+ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | die 1 | | die 2 | | | | | | | | | +-----*--+ +------*----+ | | | | | | | | chip | +-----------------------------------------+ 1. How can I choose the model for this pin, say I already have models = for each I/O buffers? 2. Is R_pkg, L_pkg and C_pkg is sufficient to model the trace among 2 = I/Os and pin? 3. which IBIS version should I use: 2.1 or 3.2? I'll appreciate if you give me any opinions or suggestions. Thanks. ************************* Lixin Lu IC CAD Specialist MOSAID Technologies Inc. 11 Hines Road, Kanata, Ontario Canada K2K 2X1 (613) 599 9539 ext 1638 ************************* ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: =20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=20 Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu