The backplane companies like Tyco seem confident about it, and they have been building back- and mid-planes for telcos for years. It will be interesting to see where this goes. Larry Miller -----Original Message----- From: Alex Horvath [mailto:alexh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 10:31 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSPICE W element field solver model Chris, I found your statements below very interesting because we have a consultant working for us that's telling us 3 gig on a FR-4 backplane (20") is no big deal. I told him I had some concerns based on the chip manufacturers data which recommended GETEK or similar. Do any simulators take losses into account? Are there any publications or papers that discuss in more detail the DK and loss tan you mentioned below? This is the first time I have worked at frequencies where this is a concern. Thanks, Alex H -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Chris Mesibov Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 4:58 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HSPICE W element field solver model Most PCB fabricators and their lamenate suppliers don't characterize FR4 above 1.5 GHz (i.e. for DK and loss tan). Therefore specifying controlled impedance lines intended for this bandwidth should be rejected by any fab house worth their salt. The problem is that the studies of FR4 at frequencies up to 10Ghz show dramatic changes in loss tan and DK over freq and temp. What this would result in for digital signals is group delay and rise time degradation. Group delay is when the fourier components of the waveform propagate down the transmission line at different rates. The rise time degrades because as the frequency increases, so does the loss tangent. This has the effect of attenuating the harmonics of the waveform, thus slowing the rise time. Hope this sheds some light. Chris Alex March wrote: > Dear SI experts, > > I would like to ask about your experiences with the > W element field solver model in HSPICE. I am trying to > make some simulations in the Gigahertz range with FR4 > material and I am not sure about what value I should > use for the conductivity of FR4. > > Thank you, > > Alex > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > Old list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > -- Chris Mesibov Sr. Hardware Engineer Fujitsu Network Communications, Inc. Phone:(845)731-2037 2 Blue Hill Plaza, 6th Floor Fax: (845)731-2011 Pearl River, NY 10965 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu