[SI-LIST] Re: Guard Traces
- From: <Wolfgang.Maichen@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <fred@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <doh@xxxxxxxxxx>, <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:32:22 +0000
If there is no ground plane below your trace (e.g. single layer design) and you
use "guard traces" to "stabilize" the line impedance, what you really have is a
coplanar waveguide. I would not use the term "guard traces" in this situation -
those are actually your reference planes now (just happen to be coplanar with
your signal trace instead of below it). And you better have very tight
tolerances on your signal-trace-to-ground-trace spacing and width to get even a
modicum of impedance control (to achieve 50 Ohm impedance the required spacing
will have to be MUCH smaller than your line width, so any etch tolerance
becomes a major factor).
Wolfgang
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Fred Balistreri
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:42 AM
To: doh@xxxxxxxxxx; weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Guard Traces
As the guard trace gets closer the impedance of the line changes. So you'll
have to use a
Field solver to predict. If you can get it close and meet Zo then you're
ok. If it's high
Speed then stiching vias to the gnd plane may be required. Richie's point
is that you usually
can get the noise immunity you're looking for by simply using proper spacing
and it may take up less geometry with less fuss.
Now there are cases where guard traces are useful. If one doesn't have
planes for example or
some analog applications where sensitive lines need to be carefully isolated
from digital, switching supply or other such sources.
Bottom line depends on the application and skill set of the
designer/engineer.
Cheers
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Oh, Dan
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 4:14 PM
To: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Guard Traces
I agree completely with Steve.
If the spacing between signal and guard trace is sufficiently narrow than
dielectric height, it will help. It is all about assumption and we should
not simply discount the guard trace for all cases. Cheers,
-Dan Oh
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of steve weir
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:21 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Guard Traces
Rick, the percentage coupling between adjacent lines depends on the
geometry. For boards with modest dielectric thickness above solid planes
the percentage coupling is small. As the dielectric gets thicker, the
percentage coupling between adjacent lines goes up.
Steve.
On 3/9/2012 8:48 AM, Rick Collins wrote:
> I hate posted to this group because of all the Out Of Office replies,
> but I can't let this go.
>
> It is exactly the inductive coupling that a guard trace has no impact
> on, right? The concept of the guard trace is that it is closer to the
> victim trace than the aggressor is and so the electrostatic potential
> of the guard is the dominant influence. But the inductive coupling is
> not significantly affected. I supposed there could be some return
> current induced into the guard trace, but this would be a small effect
> relative to the ground and power planes.
>
> Do I have this all wrong? Does a guard trace reduce inductive
> coupling via the induced ground current?
>
> Rick
>
>
> At 11:40 AM 3/9/2012, Oh, Dan wrote:
>> Hi Steve and Doug,
>> I also agree with you. You guys have one more vote. The guard trace
>> is very effective to reduce the inductive coupling which cannot be
>> easily reduced by spacing.
>> Best,
>> -Dan Oh
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of steve weir
>> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 9:23 PM
>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Guard Traces
>>
>> Doug, I agree that guard traces can help in certain situations. In
>> most, and particularly when inserted without doing the requisite
>> engineering work, they can make a good mess of things.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Steve.
>> On 3/8/2012 8:22 PM, Doug Smith wrote:
>>> Hi Lee,
>>>
>>> Your statement is true for most cases, but for two layer boards
>>> (every household has several of these with processors on them) guard
>>> traces can stabilize impedance, improve grounding, and lower noise
coupling.
>>> I agree with you for advanced electronics.
>>>
>>> We should always state the assumptions made when citing design or
>>> other rules. I see this a lot in EMC books where an equation is
>>> given (such as slot radiation) but the (sometimes many) assumptions
>>> are not given and people use the equations when they don't apply.
>>> Shielding effectiveness is another case where the common equations
>>> do not apply in many cases (far field conditions are assumed when in
>>> fact they are not met). Under every equation in EMC and other books
>>> there should be a list of assumptions given.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>> On 3/8/12 10:52 AM, Lee Ritchey wrote:
>>>> With all the feedback on this forum that guard traces are a bad
>> idea, why is this discussion still going on? Are there still people
>> who cling to the notion that guard traces are useful, even in the
>> face of mounting evidence that they don't help?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Dennis<dennis.han@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Mar 7, 2012 12:59 PM
>>>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Guard Traces
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition to what Wolfgang has stated, if the guard traces
>> are too close to the signal traces, and most people who believe in
>> ground traces put them too close (ground fill also falls in this
>> category), the impedance of the signal traces is lowered and there
>> are less crosstalk and radiation because of it if the now mismatched
>> terminations don't cause other problems.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Gwen and Wolfgang<gwmaichen@...>
wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> first, the short answer: simply don't use guard traces here, they
>>>>>> won't help much with isolation of high speed signals, and they
>>>>>> use up way too much routing space (on all layers, because of the
>>>>>> stitching vias necessary). Much easier to just increase the
>>>>>> distance between diff pairs etc. and you get the same benefit.
>>>>>> (in fact, I suspect the reason many people believe in the magic
>>>>>> power of guard traces in this setting - high speed signaling - is
>>>>>> because those traces _force_ you to have enough space between
>>>>>> signal lines...). Guard traces have their place in low-current /
>>>>>> low-leakage / high-voltage applications, but NOT in high speed
>> digital. At least that's my opinion.
>>>>>> If you do need grounded traces, stitch them to the ground planes
>>>>>> with vias spaced no further than a quarter wavelength from the
>>>>>> signal trace and at an interval of no less than a quarter wave
>>>>>> length from each other. The wavelength given of course by
>>>>>> bandwidth connected with the signal rise time, BW = 0.33 / Tr, or
>>>>>> a bit more conservatively, the knee frequency f_knee = 0.5 / Tr.
>>>>>> No special termination needed at the ends of those traces because
>>>>>> they are already solidly grounded along their full length.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wolfgang
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 7:31 PM, Aaditya Kandibanda wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>>>> I have few questions about the guard traces.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. How do I terminate the guard traces?
>>>>>>> 2. While using the guard traces for differential pair, how shall
>>>>>>> I place them between the differential pair?
>>>>>>> 3. How should I place the vias for guard traces?
>>>>>>> 4. What are disadvantages of Guard traces?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks and regards
>>>>>>> Aaditya
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>> I just used the energy it took to get mad and wrote some blues.
>>>> Count Basie
>>>>
>>>> Lee W. Ritchey
>>>> Speeding Edge
>>>> P.O. Box 2194
>>>> Glen Ellen, CA
>>>> 707-568-3983
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>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Weir
>> IPBLOX, LLC
>> 150 N. Center St. #211
>> Reno, NV 89501
>> www.ipblox.com
>>
>> (775) 299-4236 Business
>> (866) 675-4630 Toll-free
>> (707) 780-1951 Fax
>>
>> All contents Copyright (c)2012 IPBLOX, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
>> This e-mail may contain confidential material. If you are not the
>> intended recipient, please destroy all records and notify the sender.
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--
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
150 N. Center St. #211
Reno, NV 89501
www.ipblox.com
(775) 299-4236 Business
(866) 675-4630 Toll-free
(707) 780-1951 Fax
All contents Copyright (c)2012 IPBLOX, LLC. All Rights Reserved. This
e-mail may contain confidential material. If you are not the intended
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