[SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves your teeth Shiny White Too!
- From: "Hargin, Bill" <bill_hargin@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:53:52 -0700
Hi Scott:
> Oooh, oooh , and to follow on after Tom, how those sorts of custom=20
> measurements would integrate with the current and future board level=20
> SI and timing tools!
Gary's probably wanting me to respond here, from a HyperLynx standpoint.
(I saw question on the thread a week ago.) You, or possibly others, may
be wondering whether a significant chunk of the market (e.g., ICX +
HyperLynx =3D A significant chunk of the SI tools market) will be
supporting AMS modeling.
It is our intention with HyperLynx to support AMS modeling. The
question is: When? The answer is: maybe this year; we're not 100% sure.
When I have an answer, I'll post the decision to the list. Our goal is
to support ...
1. Whatever results in the most models being available (to you guys).
2. Something we can feasibly support in the product.
(ICX already has this capability, so we have the technology.)
Once HyperLynx and ICX support the same approach, that would cover over
half of the board-level SI market.
Bill Hargin
Product Manager - HyperLynx
Mentor Graphics Corp.
425-497-5079 - Direct
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:23 PM
> To: tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Pratt, Gary; twesterh@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves=20
> your teeth Shiny White Too!
>=20
> Gary,
> Oooh, oooh , and to follow on after Tom, how those sorts of=20
> custom measurements would integrate with the current and=20
> future board level SI and timing tools!
>=20
> Scott
>=20
> Scott McMorrow
> Grand Poobah
> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> 121 North River Drive
> Narragansett, RI 02882
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>=20
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>=20
> Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed=20
> Consulting Group LLC
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Tom Dagostino wrote:
>=20
> >Gary
> >
> >I'm sure that this would not be much of a challenge. But I=20
> think the=20
> >community would like to see some examples of *-AMS models, how long=20
> >they took to put together, how fast they run compared to SPICE or=20
> >traditional IBIS, how accurate they are compared to SPICE under real=20
> >world conditions, etc. I think this would be a great paper for=20
> >DesignCon or one of the IBIS meetings. And as I said before, I'm=20
> >willing to help with this by making measurements on a device=20
> and comparing them to simulations.
> >
> >Tom Dagostino
> >Teraspeed Labs
> >13610 SW Harness Lane
> >Beaverton, OR 97008
> >503-430-1065
> >http://www.teraspeed.com
> >tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> >121 North River Drive
> >Narragansett, RI 02882
> >401-284-1827
> >
> >Teraspeed is the registered service mark of Teraspeed=20
> Consulting Group=20
> >LLC
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Pratt, Gary [mailto:gary_pratt@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 12:43 PM
> >To: tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; twesterh@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves your=20
> >teeth Shiny White Too!
> >
> >
> >Tom,
> >
> >I wouldn't expect this to represent much of a challenge. I suspect=20
> >much of the programming for this would be in sequential code (in a=20
> >process), so it would look much like C.
> >
> >Btw: I just read an article on the timing requirements of DDR2=20
> >receivers (related to the timing dependency on input slew=20
> rate). If I=20
> >understand the issue correctly, this is another example of =20
> application=20
> >which could be quickly addressed with an AMS receiver model. And, I=20
> >suspect these are just the tip of the iceberg of useful applications=20
> >that will become apparent once knowledge of the capabilities of AMS=20
> >becomes more common.
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >On Behalf Of Tom Dagostino
> >Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 12:12 PM
> >To: twesterh@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves=20
> your teeth=20
> >Shiny White Too!
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >Are these things that hard to write?
> >
> >Tom Dagostino
> >Teraspeed Labs
> >13610 SW Harness Lane
> >Beaverton, OR 97008
> >503-430-1065
> >http://www.teraspeed.com
> >tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> >121 North River Drive
> >Narragansett, RI 02882
> >401-284-1827
> >
> >Teraspeed is the registered service mark of Teraspeed=20
> Consulting Group=20
> >LLC
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff
> >(twesterh)
> >Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 6:58 AM
> >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves=20
> your teeth=20
> >Shiny White Too!
> >
> >
> >I guess I'm confused. When you talk about automating eye=20
> measurments=20
> >in AMS, are you speaking from experience, or hypothetically?
> >
> >Todd.
> >
> >Todd Westerhoff
> >High Speed Design Group Manager
> >Cisco Systems
> >1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 email:twesterh@xxxxxxxxx
> >ph: 978-936-2149
> =
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> >"Always do right.
> > This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
> >
> >- Mark Twain
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >On Behalf Of Pratt, Gary
> >Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:24 AM
> >To: twesterh@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves=20
> your teeth=20
> >Shiny White Too!
> >
> >Hi Todd,
> >
> >That would depend on the size of your consulting budget (or=20
> on a change=20
> >in my job description). =3D20
> >
> >Though, I suspect the vendor of a tool supporting AMS might=20
> be willing=20
> >to write such a model if it was made a contingency of a tool=20
> sale. =3D20
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff (twesterh)
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:59 AM
> >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves=20
> your teeth=20
> >Shiny White Too!
> >
> >Gary,
> >
> >That sounds like a very interesting and valuable=20
> application. Are you=20
> >able to contribute some code for this?
> >
> >Todd.
> >
> >
> >Todd Westerhoff
> >High Speed Design Group Manager
> >Cisco Systems
> >1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719 email:twesterh@xxxxxxxxx
> >ph: 978-936-2149
> =
>=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=
3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
> 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3
> >D
> >=3D3D=3D
> =
>=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=
3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
> >
> >"Always do right.
> > This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
> >
> >- Mark Twain
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >On Behalf Of Pratt, Gary
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 12:18 PM
> >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement - And leaves=20
> your teeth=20
> >Shiny White Too!
> >
> >Of course, automated measurements is another benefit to AMS=20
> that hasn't=20
> >received a lot of attention on the list. Creating an AMS receiver=20
> >model that outputs eye measurements would be a very=20
> straightforward task.
> >Actually, the device wouldn't have to be in the receiver, it=20
> could be=20
> >attached anywhere in the circuit using [external circuit] in=20
> a "macro"
> >fashion. =3D3D20
> >
> >The model would do its calculations during the simulation providing=20
> >incremental data during the simulation, and the final results=20
> >immediately at the end of the simulation. Watching the results=20
> >progress towards and asymptote may provide a feel for adequacy of=20
> >coverage and simulation time requirements. Consisting of mostly=20
> >sequential coding (which is partitioned to the event-driven solver),=20
> >the measurement would have minimal impact on the overall simulation=20
> >time. =3D3D20
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:22 AM
> >To: Jim Antonellis
> >Cc: edpc108@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement
> >
> >The trick is one set of measure statements to cover each bit cell,=20
> >which results in 100's, 1000's or 10000's of measure=20
> statements for an=20
> >entire simulated data stream. It can be done and implemented with a=20
> >script that parses the excitation pattern, and then processes all of=20
> >the measurement results. It is not pretty. It is an=20
> exceedingly slow=20
> >post processing operation in HSPICE, when the time=20
> resolution is down=20
> >in the 1ps range.
> >Which is why other external waveform processing, as is done in the=20
> >SiSoft tools, is more desireable.
> >scott
> >
> >Scott McMorrow
> >Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> >121 North River Drive
> >Narragansett, RI 02882
> >(401) 284-1827 Business
> >(401) 284-1840 Fax
> >
> >http://www.teraspeed.com
> >
> >Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting=20
> >Group LLC
> >
> >
> >
> >Jim Antonellis wrote:
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>Hi Scott, Jaaprakash,
> >>
> >>I looked into this a while back, and I thought using the=20
> >>HSPICE=3D3D20=3D20
> >> =20
> >>
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>.MEASURE construct you did not have the ability to make multiple =3D
> >> =20
> >>
> >bit=3D3D20
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>cell measurements. Could you please share the .MEASURE syntax=20
> >>that=3D3D20
> >> =20
> >>
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>=3D
> >> =20
> >>
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>would make this possible as I had to resort to a post-proc=3D20=20
> >>spreadsheet=3D3D20 last time I did it.... and would greatfully=20
> >>appreciate
> >> =20
> >>
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>=3D
> >> =20
> >>
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>the
> >> =20
> >>
> >"trick".
> > =20
> >
> >>Thx,
> >>Jim
> >>
> >>
> >>-
> >>Jim Antonellis janton@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Sandburst Corp www.sandburst.com
> >>Office: 978.689.1669
> >>Cell: 978.618.4745
> >>
> >>This message and any attachments are Confidential and may be =3D
> >> =20
> >>
> >Legally=3D3D20
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>Privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not=20
> >>the
> >> =20
> >>
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>intended recipient, please delete this message from your system =3D
> >> =20
> >>
> >and=3D3D20=3D20
> > =20
> >
> >>notify us immediately. Any dis-closure, copying, distribution or=20
> >>action
> >> =20
> >>
> >
> > =20
> >
> >>taken or omitted to be taken by an unintended recipient in=20
> reliance=3D20=20
> >>on=3D3D20 this message is prohibited and may be unlawful.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:12 AM
> >>To: edpc108@xxxxxxxxx
> >>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Eye diagram measurement
> >>
> >>
> >>Jaaprakash,
> >>
> >>Yes. It can be done with .measure statements, or it can be =
done=3D20=20
> >>with=3D3D20 SiSoft's SiAuditor measurement capability.
> >>
> >>scott
> >>
> >>Scott McMorrow
> >>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> >>121 North River Drive
> >>Narragansett, RI 02882
> >>(401) 284-1827 Business
> >>(401) 284-1840 Fax
> >>
> >>http://www.teraspeed.com
> >>
> >>Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting
> >> =20
> >>
> >Group=3D3D20
> > =20
> >
> >>LLC
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Jayaprakash wrote:
> >>
> >>=3D3D20
> >>
> >> =20
> >>
> >>>Hi ,
> >>>
> >>> Is it possible to measure eye diagram height and width (not=3D3D20
> >>>graphically) in HSPICE simulations?
> >>>
> >>>Thanks,
> >>>
> >>>Best regards,
> >>> Jayaprakash.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Send instant messages to your online friends=3D3D20=3D20=20
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