[SI-LIST] Re: [Expert system]
- From: "Beal, Weston" <weston_beal@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:09:18 -0800
Se-Ho You,
Probably the best description of what the expert systems for EMI aim to
do is from the UMR EMI consortium web page,
http://www.emclab.umr.edu/consortium/Expert/pcbexpert.html
"The goal of this project is to develop intelligent EMI modeling
software that will work with automated printed circuit board layout
tools to:=20
"review and analyze printed circuit board designs;=20
point out problems with the layout that could result in electromagnetic
emissions or electromagnetic susceptibility;=20
estimate levels of radiated EMI;=20
anticipate ESD and radiated susceptibility problems; and=20
provide circuit and board layout design advice.=20
"Unlike numerical EM modeling software or EMC design rule checkers, the
software being developed by the consortium examines boards in much the
same manner as a professional EMC engineer. Potential common-mode and
differential-mode EMI sources are identified and evaluated. The software
looks for EMI antennas on or off the board and evaluates how hard they
are being driven. It identifies any problems found with the board layout
and estimates the impact of these problems on the radiated EMI from the
system."
I describe it like this; An EMI expert has experience and knowledge that
enable them to find potential problems in a PCB design. These experts
often manually scan a PCB design for configurations that they know can
cause EMI. An expert system such as QUIET Expert automates the search
that the expert would do so that the search is automated, consistent,
and less prone to human error. An expert system cannot replace a field
solver, engineering education, and good problem solving. What it does is
relieve the EMI expert from the often mundane task of PCB layout
scanning so that the human expert can spend more time on the "good
stuff" like field solvers and lab measurements, etc. The design rules
are only as good as the expertise of the human expert that specifies
them.
Another aspect of the expert system is that it points out a specific net
or part and gives advice about how to fix the potential problem (design
rule violation). This language should be understandable and applicable
in terms that the layout design can use. Telling the layout designer
that the PCB has radiation 8dB over the limit at 525MHz doesn't tell
them what to change on the design, but "Net HISPEED_CLK is too close to
the front panel connector. Move the trace at 100 mils from the
connector." is something that the layout designer understands.
The EMI DRC software that I know of are QUIET Expert (Mentor Graphics),
EM Designer (Zuken), something from IBM, EMControl (Cadence; haven't
heard anything on this lately. Is it still available?), and various
internal tools. Does anyone know of more?
Regards,
Weston
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of yous@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 5:14 PM
To: ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [Expert system]
To Dear Ray:
I am not going to comment on the nomenclature either.
I am looking at this expert system with research point of view. Question
is what is expert system aiming at? I understood that it checks design
rules.
Does it mean expert system is quick-and-dirty checker? In the end, do we
need to use full wave electromagnetics simulation tools? Does expert
system "suggest" best design approach among many rules?
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Se-Ho You
Quoting Ray Anderson <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>:
> The title of this post caught my attention. I'm not really going to=20
> comment on where EMC research is going on, however the concept of=20
> "Expert Systems" as related to EMC and SI has always struck me as a=20
> misnomer.
>
> I've authored a number of SI related CAD tools and have used many fine
> commercial tools whose end goal is to simplify a complex analysis or=20
> design task enough that the average experienced engineer can use the=20
> tools to their advantage. However calling any of these tools "Expert=20
> Systems" or "Expert Tools" with the intent to imply that knowledge of=20
> an expert in a field will be imparted to the user by merely utilizing=20
> one of these tools is a pretty far stretch in my opinion.
>
> While I was at Sun our SI staff had numerous conversations on this=20
> topic and concluded that these tools should be termed "Tools for=20
> Experts" as opposed to "Expert Tools". You aren't going to hand a=20
> complex tool like HFSS or Specctraquest for example, to a new grad or=20
> 'Joe Garageshop' and expect to get the same results as someone with 20
> years of experience in the field. (note: by citing a couple tools by=20
> name in this paragraph I wasn't implying that those particular tools=20
> are particularly difficult to use, but was just trying to give some=20
> non-trivial examples)
>
> I'll accept that a tool for screening a design for EMC flaws and=20
> red-flags may be a bit more amenable to the concept of an "Expert
Tool"
> than say a full-wave 3D FEM extractor, however, if the user is=20
> depending totally on the tool rather than using it to supplement their
> knowledge and experience, I can't really foresee a good outcome.
>
> anyway, that's my 2 cents for Friday...... :)
>
> -Ray
>
>
> --
> Raymond Anderson
> Senior Signal Integrity Staff Engineer Product Technology Dept.
> Package Engineering Group
> Xilinx Inc.
>
>
>
>
> yous@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
> >To Dear All:
> >
> >Researchers in University of Rolla (UMR) and EMC related companies
have
> >developed "expert system" to check or detect EMI and EMC problem
early.
> >
> >I wonder whether EMC engineers actually use. If they use, then I
wonder to
> >what applications they use.
> >
> >It looks like to me that there are lots of research going on in UMR,
but
> other
> >than UMR, I cannot find any papers from any other research group.
> >
> >Thank you for your comments in advance.
> >
> >Thank you very much.
> >Sincerely,
> >Se-Ho You
> >(cell) +1-303-818-4352
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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