Steve I measured from 100Hz t0 1MHz and from 1MHz to 1GHz. When I measured, the decoupling cap is soldered off. Therefore, the power ground noise is not "colored". If there is ringing problem inside the chip, how to measure? Best Regards Zhangkun 2004.8.27 ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve weir" <weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx> To: "Zhangkun" <zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx>; <reanderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 6:08 PM Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Decoupling for PLL > Zhangkun, is the spectrum analyzer set to read down to at least the LC > corner frequency? Were you able to get a good coaxial connection across > the capacitor back to the spectrum analyzer? If so, then the only other > thing that comes to mind is that the ringing problem is inside the chip. > > In any event, the circuit will not be well-behaved without a resistor. So, > if your layout is committed and you only have pads that can be used by a > resistor, or an inductor, select a resistor that satisfies the DC > requirements, and if necessary adjust the capacitor for the low frequency > insertion loss required. > > Steve. > At 05:21 PM 8/27/2004 +0800, Zhangkun wrote: > >steve > > > >I have measured the power ground noise by spectrum analyzer. There is no > >obvious difference. > > > >At some frequency, when the inductor(bead) is changed to resistor, the > >power ground noise become larger. I am confusing. > > > >Best Regards > > > >Zhangkun > >2004.8.27 > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "steve weir" <weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx> > >To: "zhangkun 29902" <zhang_kun@xxxxxxxxxx>; <reanderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 4:01 PM > >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Decoupling for PLL > > > > > > > Zhangkun, if you have a DSO that exports ASCII, then you can process the > > > data to obtain the FFT. FFT's are great for seeing what is going > > > on. There is also some commercial software for that purpose. > > > > > > Steve. > > > At 07:46 AM 8/27/2004 +0800, zhangkun 29902 wrote: > > > >ray and steve > > > > > > > >Thank you for your good advice. I have measured the power ground noise at > > > >the power pin of PLL. I do not see great difference between using > > > >inductor(bead) and resistor. This is my problem. The difference is about > > > >3db, which could be ignored. > > > > > > > >I do not use scope by spectrum analyzer. > > > > > > > >It is obvious that the RC filter has lower Q than LC filter. Here I use > > > >resistor of 0 ohm. This should have some effect on power ground noise. I > > > >want to get some different measurement about power ground noise. > > > > > > > >Best Regards > > > > > > > >Zhangkun > > > >2004.8.27 > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Ray Anderson <reanderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > >Date: Friday, August 27, 2004 3:21 am > > > >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Decoupling for PLL > > > > > > > > > steve weir wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Ray, zhang_kun, any linear filter book will show you your > > > > > options. > > > > > > Basically, you should start with the required impedance of the > > > > > filter > > > > > > at DC, use that to determine your resistor, and then derive L > > > > > and C > > > > > > based on the cut-off frequency required. To contain the > > > > > ringing, set > > > > > > the damping coefficient to a reasonably high value. Circuit 3A > > > > > used > > > > > > to be very popular with voltage mode switching power supplies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you could design an impedance matched filter by untilizing > > > > > any of > > > > > the tried and true methods for synthesizing RF filters, BUT, I > > > > > think you > > > > > will find that when you specify the source resistance to be very > > > > > low > > > > > (say on the order of milliohms as PS supply outputs are) and the > > > > > load > > > > > resistance to be that of a typical analog ckt like a PLL (in the > > > > > 100's > > > > > of ohms) and that your desired roll-off frequency to be in the kHz > > > > > to > > > > > 100's of kHz range you will find that the L and C values that fall > > > > > out > > > > > of the synthesis procedure are such that they are unrealizable on > > > > > most > > > > > PCB designs. > > > > > > > > > > -Ray > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > > > > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > > > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > > > > > > For help: > > > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > > > > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > > > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > > > > > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > > > > http://www.si-list.org > > > > > > > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > > > > or at our remote archives: > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu