Richard - As another SI-er said, you will probably get a lot of responses to this one - mostly because there are a lot of opinions out there on how to do decoupling. I'd like to address this issue because I think we are on the threshold of doing a lot of good things in the power distribution and decoupling area. We need some help from the capacitor vendors. The short answer to your question assumes that the loop inductance for the mounted capacitor is 1 nH. The series resonant frequency of a capacitor is 1/{2pi*sqrt(LC)}. The minimum of the impedance curve occurs at series resonance and is the value of the capacitor ESR. The frequency associated with each of your capacitors is: 470 pF 232 MHz 0.01 uF 50 MHz 0.1 uF 16 MHz Putting low ESR capacitors in parallel is like playing with fire. You can cook with fire and heat your house, but if you are not careful with fire, you will get burned. I am a strong advocate of multiple low ESR capacitors in parallel because I believe we have learned how to make good, safe use of them. The optimum power distribution system (fewest components, least cost, least complexity) is obtained from careful selection and placement of capacitors with a reasonably high Q (low ESR). The trick is to create a low and flat impedance profile in the frequency domain by using different valued capacitors in parallel. Systems behave best when chips look out and see a power distribution system that is resistive in phase (flat impedance). We like to establish a target impedance which is defined as Ztarget = power_supply_voltage * 5% / transient_current. If your PDS impedance meets the target impedance up to the highest frequency of interest, your noise will be within acceptable limits. Much more is written on this topic in "Power Distribution System Design Methodology and Capacitor Selection for Modern CMOS Technology" http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu/si_documents/docs.html It is easy to meet a 1 Ohm or 0.1 Ohm target impedance using "rules of thumb" for decoupling and high ESR capacitors. It becomes a little more difficult to meet a 10 mOhm target. If you are trying to meet 1 mOhm target impedance up to several hundred MHz, it will be very difficult unless you have a well defined methodology and some software tools to help you. On some of our more recent products, at least one of each of the ceramic capacitors from the following menu are used: 100uF, 47uF, 22uF, 10uF, 4.7uF, 2.2uF, 1uF, 470nF, 220nF, 100nF, 47nF, 22nF, 10nF, 4.7nF, 2.2nF, 1nF, 680pF, 470pF, 330pF, 220pF, 150pF, 100pF With three capacitors per decade of capacitance, it is possible to make a flat impedance vs frequency profile from about 200 kHz to 400 MHz without any problem from parallel antiresonances. The lower the ESL and ESR (within reason), the fewer components you need. X7R capacitors tend to have Q's between 2 and 5 and three values per decade are sufficient. NPO (COG) capacitors may have Q's between 5 and 10 and six values per decade are useful. Closely spaced power planes may be used instead of some of the pF capacitors. We have our own internal software tools to help manage the design. Cadence is marketing the Power Delivery Tool under SpectraQuest that does the same thing as our tools. The Cadence tool is even better because it is hooked up to the design data base for the PCB. Like all SI tools, these tools are based on models and the analysis is only as good as the models. These days, I spend half of my life out in the lab measuring capacitors and reducing the measured data. The capacitor vendors could help me greatly by measuring the ESR and ESL of their capacitors and publishing the data. They could also help by designing capacitors that have the absolute minimum internal inductance. BTW, traditional measurement techniques do not obtain very good values for ESR and ESL. (Maybe that should be the topic of another email.) regards, Larry Smith Sun Microsystems > Delivered-To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:00:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: richard hill <richard2636@xxxxxxxxxx> > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [SI-LIST] Decoupling > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > X-Sender-Ip: 198.81.17.153 > X-archive-position: 343 > X-listar-version: Listar v1.0.0 > X-original-sender: richard2636@xxxxxxxxxx > X-list: si-list > > > I have come across 470 pF capacitors being used > for decoupling. What frequency range is this > capacitor effective for decoupling? How about .1 uF > and .01 uF? What if you put all of them in parallel? > Is there a good document describing this selection of > capacitors, I have come across these values quite often. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu