[SI-LIST] Re: Conductor loss reduction at High Frequency
- From: olaney@xxxxxxxx
- To: hreidmarkailen@xxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:50:09 -0700
Here is a link to the paper that Dr. Bogatin pointed out:
http://www.gouldelectronics.com/papers/CopperSurfaceLoss.pdf
Orin
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:26:43 -0700 agathon <hreidmarkailen@xxxxxxxxx>
writes:
> Eric or others,
> YIKES! I would like to enquire about:
>
> * references for the 2x resistance increase, dependent on
> roughness/skin
> depth ratio.
> * suggestions for simulating this ... cannot just hack a tabular
> rlgc or
> sparam file [??]
> since the R is really R(f), unless answer to the 1st question
> gets me a
> R(f) indirectly.
>
> Need to consider this. Very serious. For 10G.
> Please help!
>
>
> Regards,
> Agathon
>
>
> On 8/29/07, Eric Bogatin <eric@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > I second Scott's important point. Above 1 GHz, skin depth is less
> than 2
> > microns in copper. When the RMS surface roughness is larger than
> the skin
> > depth, it affects conductor loss.
> >
> > Above 3 GHz, surface roughness can almost double conductor loss.
> In fact,
> > the commonly used approximations for the impact from conductor
> loss,
> > saturate at a factor of 2 increase to the resistance when the
> surface
> > roughness is about 3 x skin depth.
> >
> > This means, even though your line width is 5 mils, it would have
> the
> > conductor loss equivalent of a 2.5 mil wide line. The conductor
> loss can
> > easily swamp the dissipation factor of even FR4, negating any
> benefit for
> > low loss materials unless you are using very wide lines.
> >
> > If you want the biggest bang for the buck in evaluating
> conductors, try
> > looking at surface treatments that allow smoother copper foils.
> >
> > --eric
> >
> > **************************************
> > Dr. Eric Bogatin, President
> > Bogatin Enterprises, LLC
> > Setting the Standard for Signal Integrity Training
> > 26235 w 110th terr
> > Olathe, KS 66061
> > v: 913-393-1305
> > f: 913-393-0929
> > c:913-424-4333
> > e:eric@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > www.BeTheSignal.com
> > Fall 2007 Signal Integrity Training Institute
> > EPSI, SIAA, BBDP
> > Oct 8-12, 2007, San Jose, CA
> > ****************************************
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:11 PM
> > To: jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx
> > Cc: sridharam@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Conductor loss reduction at High Frequency
> >
> > Surface roughness is the largest contributor we've measured for
> > conductor loss. There are certain low loss materials that are
> > constructed with high tooth copper for maximum adhesion, which
> show
> > enough loss to absolutely negate any benefit that the low loss
> (low tan
> > delta) material would have had over materials with twice the
> dielectric
> > loss.
> >
> > Interesting stuff.
> >
> > Scott McMorrow
> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > 121 North River Drive
> > Narragansett, RI 02882
> > (401) 284-1827 Business
> > (401) 284-1840 Fax
> >
> > http://www.teraspeed.com
> >
> > TeraspeedR is the registered service mark of
> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyer, Jeff wrote:
> > > My 2 cents available in the article below:
> > >
> > > http://pcdandm.com/cms/content/view/2572/95/
> > >
> > >
> > > Jeff Loyer
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On Behalf Of M Sridhar
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 5:08 AM
> > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Conductor loss reduction at High Frequency
> > >
> > > Hi Members,
> > >
> > > What are the methods by which we can reduce the conductor losses
> at high
> > > frequency?(Loss due to skin effect, Dielectric losses etc.)
> > > Which is the best conductor at higher frequency? in the range of
> 1-5 GHz
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Sridhar
> > >
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