*From*: "David Banas" <david.banas@xxxxxxxxxx>*Date*: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:43:48 -0700

Sorry to fuel this, but there're a few corrections that need to be made here... > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of olaney@xxxxxxxx > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:16 PM > To: Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Circle bus topology; Circular Firing Squad? >=20 > I've added an additional note to forestall a dead end line of reasoning. > You are headed in the right direction. The electrons only drift slowly > with the current. Meanwhile, they wander all over the place under > thermal influence. Note that being electrons, they mutually repel and > never actually collide. [David Banas] This statement conveys the notion that there is an exact boundary between particle locations, which must be crossed, in order for a "collision" to have occurred. This is not a physically correct interpretation. After all, we know that particles can be accurately described by wave functions that have exponentially decaying amplitudes, which never go completely to zero. That is, there is a small but finite probability for every particle to "be" anywhere. Therefore, one could argue that all particles are "colliding" all the time. >To do that, electrons require energies typical > of a particle accelerator. The temperature would have to be so high that > the metal would have long since vaporized. >=20 > For solid metals at room temperature (and considerably higher), the sea > of electrons in the metal acts like a 3D mesh of tiny masses suspended by > electrostatic "springs". The wave is transmitted at close to the speed > of light by the electrostatic forces in the mesh (action at a distance). [David Banas] No, E&M waves require no medium in which to propagate. They are perfectly happy propagating through free space. In fact, just the opposite of what you posit is true; it is very difficult for an E&M wave to propagate very far into a conductor. > The response of the mesh to disturbances is linear and superposition > applies. [David Banas] Actually, atomically bound electrons also exhibit some non-linear characteristics in their response to electromagnetic field perturbances. They are very small compared to the linear component of the response, but they are NOT zero. Waves can pass in all directions simultaneously and > independently. >=20 > Note: The electric wave propagation is so fast compared to the electron > drift, that though the electrons will wiggle slightly in response, their > nominal positions are as if they are frozen in a snapshot. Drift > movement is of no consequence to the wave propagation. [David Banas] You need to be careful here. If by "drift movement" you mean the d.c. component of the current in the conductor induced by the incident electromagnetic field, then I agree with you. However, that induced current also has a.c. components (which I think might be what you're referring to when you say "wiggling"), and those a.c. components very much affect the electromagnetic field, both near to and far from the conductor. (After all, if they didn't, there'd be no difference between a conductor's and an insulator's effect on E&M fields, right?) The thermal > portion averages to zero, and the slow drift with current is a response, > not a cause. [David Banas] It's actually both. For instance, there will definitely be a magnetic field generated around the conductor by this current, which would not be generated if the E&M field were incident upon an insulator. >=20 > Orin >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:03:15 -0700 "Muranyi, Arpad" > <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx> writes: > > Now that I think of it, the electrons in the copper lattice > > are moving in all different directions, not just in the > > direction of the wave, so they not only hit the electrons > > of the other wave where the waves meet, but they also hit the > > electrons of their own wave... So the bouncing will basically > > follow a random pattern allowing some to go through, some > > go sideways, others to turn around, etc... > > =3D20 > > Arpad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Muranyi, Arpad=3D20 > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:13 AM > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Circle bus topology; Circular Firing > > Squad? > > > > This is why we need to use coloring dye... :-) > > > > Seriously, I wonder about the particle and > > wave duality of electrons. Remember, the > > drift velocity of electrons is not the same > > as the propagation velocity of the EM waves. > > > > So what happens at the "collision" point (i.e. > > the electrical midpoint of the loop)? Do=3D20 > > the electrons hit each other and bounce back > > like balls with the drift velocity speeds, > > while at the same time the waves go through > > each other (at speeds close to c) without > > changing directions? > > > > Another analogy comes to my mind, when two laser > > beams on different path cross each other. After > > the cross point we are still going to see their > > original colors without any mixing. However, > > if you did the same with two water streams, > > the cross point will result in a splash in all > > different directions... > > > > Is there someone out there with a good physics=3D20 > > background who could shed some light on this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Arpad >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >=20 > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >=20 > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >=20 >=20 > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net >=20 > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

**References**:

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