*From*: "Ihsan Erdin" <erdinih@xxxxxxxxx>*To*: olaney@xxxxxxxx*Date*: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:09:35 -0400

Good summary, Orin. But the term "action at a distance" or mathematically " the field concept" is more of a macroscopic property that could be better explained at the subatomic level with the quantization of matter and energy. At the turn of the 20th century, it was understood that energy is quantized just like matter is made up of atoms. With his seminal paper on photoelectric effect, Einstein showed light (electromagnetic energy) is made up of particles called photons. Quantum electrodynamics (QED) which was pioneered by R. Feynman deals with photon-matter interaction and attempts to resolve the wave-particle duality by considering the particle nature of the electromagnetic energy rather than its wave nature which we are all used to as electrical engineers. QED successfully accounts for reflection, refraction and photoelectric effect but falls short of explaining other EM effects like interference, polarization and diffraction which are successfully accounted by the wave nature of the light. Quite interestingly, wave theory can't explain the photoelectric effect... Since the issue we're discussing here seems more in the domain of interference, I don't think treating the EM energy with its particle nature will help us resolve whether the photons are bouncing like Arpad's billiard balls or passing through. Having mentioned that example, later on a personal correspondence, Arpad corrected me for the conservation of kinetic energy and momentum in an elastic collision. So, yes his example would be the perfect case for the interaction of two particles where you can't tell whether they hit each other or pass through due to the symmetry. Regards, Ihsan On 8/1/07, olaney@xxxxxxxx <olaney@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > I've added an additional note to forestall a dead end line of reasoning. > You are headed in the right direction. The electrons only drift slowly > with the current. Meanwhile, they wander all over the place under > thermal influence. Note that being electrons, they mutually repel and > never actually collide. To do that, electrons require energies typical > of a particle accelerator. The temperature would have to be so high that > the metal would have long since vaporized. > > For solid metals at room temperature (and considerably higher), the sea > of electrons in the metal acts like a 3D mesh of tiny masses suspended by > electrostatic "springs". The wave is transmitted at close to the speed > of light by the electrostatic forces in the mesh (action at a distance). > The response of the mesh to disturbances is linear and superposition > applies. Waves can pass in all directions simultaneously and > independently. > > Note: The electric wave propagation is so fast compared to the electron > drift, that though the electrons will wiggle slightly in response, their > nominal positions are as if they are frozen in a snapshot. Drift > movement is of no consequence to the wave propagation. The thermal > portion averages to zero, and the slow drift with current is a response, > not a cause. > > Orin > > > > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 12:03:15 -0700 "Muranyi, Arpad" > <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx> writes: > > Now that I think of it, the electrons in the copper lattice > > are moving in all different directions, not just in the > > direction of the wave, so they not only hit the electrons > > of the other wave where the waves meet, but they also hit the > > electrons of their own wave... So the bouncing will basically > > follow a random pattern allowing some to go through, some > > go sideways, others to turn around, etc... > > =20 > > Arpad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Muranyi, Arpad=20 > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:13 AM > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Circle bus topology; Circular Firing > > Squad? > > > > This is why we need to use coloring dye... :-) > > > > Seriously, I wonder about the particle and > > wave duality of electrons. Remember, the > > drift velocity of electrons is not the same > > as the propagation velocity of the EM waves. > > > > So what happens at the "collision" point (i.e. > > the electrical midpoint of the loop)? Do=20 > > the electrons hit each other and bounce back > > like balls with the drift velocity speeds, > > while at the same time the waves go through > > each other (at speeds close to c) without > > changing directions? > > > > Another analogy comes to my mind, when two laser > > beams on different path cross each other. After > > the cross point we are still going to see their > > original colors without any mixing. However, > > if you did the same with two water streams, > > the cross point will result in a splash in all > > different directions... > > > > Is there someone out there with a good physics=20 > > background who could shed some light on this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Arpad > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

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