*From*: "Townsend, Fred" <ftownsend@xxxxxxxxxxxx>*To*: <olaney@xxxxxxxx>, <vinu@xxxxxxxxx>*Date*: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 11:39:56 -0700

I don't know about everyone else but I have been enjoying this discussion tremendously, even if it is a little like debating the number of angels on the head of a pin. On the practical side I have to wonder the merit of such an idea. Living in the real world, I think it highly improvable to make a perfect ring. The lack of homogeneity in laminate, the dispersion effects of the PCB material alone, are going to increase jitter. I will not file this one away in my bag of tricks. Fred Townsend -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of olaney@xxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:19 AM To: vinu@xxxxxxxxx Cc: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx; erdinih@xxxxxxxxx; ron@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Circle bus topology; Circular Firing Squad? Vinu, With all due respect, the evidence has already been stated: Ockham's razor, fundamental physics, the tagging experiment... Ultimately, I don't care whether you cling to your collision model or not. However, superposition is what they teach in engineering school, and it explains everything simply and completely. It's you against the world. Orin On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 10:45:01 -0700 Vinu Arumugham <vinu@xxxxxxxxx> writes: Orin, Since the reflected and propagated waves have identical properties and are indistinguishable, how can you be sure it is one and not the other? Thanks, Vinu olaney@xxxxxxxx wrote:=20 Vinu: Steve is correct. We all agree that the single special case of identical waves (or some fraction of both waves that can be said to be that way) approaching from both directions looks and acts in a way that can be interpreted as if there was wave collision. We all agree on that, so why belabor it? However, the collision theory supposes that somehow the physics is different just for this special case. If you acknowledge that non-identical signals pass through each other, then why not accept the exact and correct results if you assume that everything, different or identical, passes through without interaction? Why bother with a special case at all? It's a needless complication. Furthermore, the fundamental physics does not support a collision model. Here's a quote: "As discussed in Lesson 2, some forces result from contact interactions (normal, frictional, tensional, and applied forces are examples of contact forces) and other forces are the result of action-at-a-distance interactions (gravitational, electrical, and magnetic forces)." http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/CLASS/newtlaws/u2l4a.html Applying a contact model to an action-at-a-distance interaction is a conceptual error. Gravity does not rebound as the planets pass each other, and broadcast waves slip through each other effortlessly. The sea of electrons in metal supports electrical waves that do the same. Orin On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:20:23 -0700 Vinu Arumugham <vinu@xxxxxxxxx> writes: > Here is some ASCII art with "colored" waves. The LLL and RRR=20 > represent=20 > portions of a T-line charged by a wavefront. <,> represent=20 > wavefronts=20 > traveling in indicated direction. > Assume 50 ohm lines, 20mA current changes resulting in 1V=20 > wavefronts. >=20 > Incident waves of equal magnitude: > LLLLLLLLLLLL> <RRRRRRRRRRR >=20 > Reflection model : > <LLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRR> > LLLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRRR >=20 > Wave propagation model: > <LLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRR> > RRRRRRRRRRRLLLLLLLLLLLL >=20 > Unequal incident waves, left is 2V, 40mA, right is 20mA, 1V: > LLLLLLLLLLLL> > LLLLLLLLLLLL> <RRRRRRRRRRR >=20 > Reflection model: > <LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL> > LLLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRR> > LLLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRRR >=20 > For the unequal wave reflection model above, at the point where the=20 > wavefronts meet, no charge can flow (I=3D0) from the right wavefront=20 > to=20 > the left T-line because the lines are charged to the same potential.=20 > I=3D0=20 > means the right wavefront sees an open circuit and reflects. When=20 > this=20 > point reaches 2V, the 40mA left incident wavefront can charge both=20 > the=20 > T-lines with 20mA each, sending a 1V wavefront into the right=20 > T-line,=20 > and a 1V reflected wavefront going back on the left T-line. So the=20 > left=20 > incident wavefront can be described as having encountered a high=20 > impedance (>50 ohm and <open circuit) whereby a 2V incident wave=20 > produced a 1V reflected wave. >=20 > Wave propagation model: > <RRRRRRRRRRLLLLLLLLLLL> > LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL> > LLLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRRR >=20 > Thanks, > Vinu >=20 >=20 > steve weir wrote: > > Ihsan, I've presented two methods that both correctly predict the=20 > > results: One based on modeling the intersection as an open to the=20 >=20 > > even mode, while short to the odd mode, and the other on what I=20 > think=20 > > is far simpler: continuous propagation of each of the original=20 > wave=20 > > fronts. Use whichever model makes your day simpler, but for my=20 > money=20 > > I'll stick with the latter. I prefer the view that=20 > discontinuities=20 > > and resulting reflections in quasi uniform, infinite length, ie=20 > > terminated transmissions are the result of physical variations in=20 > the=20 > > channel, not patterns of energy I happen to launch into them. > > > > Consider for example +1.0V step from the left, and a +0.5V step=20 > from=20 > > the right. After they meet, the voltage moving rightward=20 > continues to=20 > > rise by +1.0V from its previous value, and the voltage moving=20 > leftward=20 > > continues to rise by +0.5V from its previous value. The waves=20 > just=20 > > linearly superimpose. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Steve. > > > > > > Ihsan Erdin wrote: > >> Steve, > >> > >> The wave propagation is simply the transfer of the energy in=20 > space. > >> For the special case a line symmetrically driven at both ends,=20 > one can > >> use the model of an unterminated transmission line driven from=20 > one > >> side only and no one can tell the difference. This is based on=20 > the > >> fundamental electromagnetic principle: image theory. > >> > >> For the uneven drivers of your example, I can rightfully argue=20 > that > >> the equal frequency components "bounced" and cancelled out while=20 > the > >> residual part kept on propagating. The idea of waves passing=20 > through > >> each other is simply a matter of perception; not a rocksolid=20 > physical > >> reality which ridicules the idea of waves bouncing in the middle.=20 > Both > >> cases have equal footing and at the end it all boils down to the > >> choice of modeling. > >> > >> The billiard ball example was an interesting attempt but not=20 > quite > >> equivalent. At the collision the balls will have to come to a > >> momentary full stop before accelerating in the reverse direction.=20 > This > >> is not symmetrical to the case where they (might) pass through=20 > each > >> other at constant speed. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Ihsan ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: =20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu

**Follow-Ups**:**[SI-LIST] Re: Circle bus topology; Circular Firing Squad?***From:*Julian Ferry

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