Charles, no as I have read him, Lee promotes putting prepreg w/o foil on the outside. Regards, Steve. At 09:01 AM 2/2/2004 -0700, Grasso, Charles wrote: >Steve, AFAIK, a buried ustrip is a ustrip with soldermask. >Is there another definition? I am unsure as to why one >would advocate a buried ustrip over a "true" surface ustrip >when (for typical boards) only buried ustrips prevail. > >Best Regards >Charles Grasso >Senior Compliance Engineer >Echostar Communications Corp. >Tel: 303-706-5467 >Fax: 303-799-6222 >Cell: 303-204-2974 >Email: charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx; >Email Alternate: chasgrasso@xxxxxxxx > > >-----Original Message----- >From: steve weir [mailto:weirsp@xxxxxxxxxx] >Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 5:44 AM >To: MikonCons@xxxxxxx; leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Traces don't cause EMI - really? > >Mike, I think the issue is worth reviewing under current >circumstances. Some understandings have improved greatly with regard to >antenna design and/or detuning, and geometries have definitely changed for >the better. Lee advocates a buried microstrip for the outermost routing >layer. That captures the vast majority of the field in the dielectric. > >It's been a long time since I read those old papers going back to the mid >eighties when stripline started getting promoted for EMI. But I am >confident that we will find all of those studies compared surface >microstrip to stripline. It would be interesting to repeat your 50 ohm >tests with this "buried microstrip" versus a true surface microstrip for >EMI. > >Regards, > >Steve > >At 03:30 PM 2/1/2004 -0500, MikonCons@xxxxxxx wrote: > >In a message dated 2/1/2004 9:35:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: > >Wow! This topic keeps coming up. Wasn't so long ago that we had a very > >long exchange where proponents of this notion provided the research papers > >that supported it. I got copies of all of them and looked for some > >objective measurement of the EMI caused by a trace routed on an outer layer > >over a plane and then moved below the plane. > >None of the papers did such an experiment in a way that could be used to > >bet money on. I pointed out that the real source of EMI from a PCB were > >the lead frames of components that stick up from the PCB. While at Maxtor, > >we had this very problem with disc drives. We fixed the problem by > >changing lead frames from PLCCs to QFPs- packages that don't stick up very > >far from the PCB. If you want to see this in action, go to Frys or any > >place else that sells stand alone disc drives and look at how the PCBs are > >designed. All of the signal traces are on outside layers and all of the > >disc drives comply with CISPRB B. > > > >We used a pedicel of equipment that allowed the PCB to be laid on it and > >then scanned to provide a 2D picture of where emission were coming from. I > >cannot remember the name of the tool, but it had a table with a grid on it > >on which the PCB was mounted. The output looked a lot like what one gets > >from a thermal mapping tool showing places with higher emissions. The > >sources of EMI were very clear- the IC lead frames. > >Thanks, Lee, for including me on your distribution. > > > >I absolutely agree that high-speed boards can be designed with many traces >on > >the PCB surfaces IF there is a high integrity enclosure. > > > >The tool you mentioned was likely of thick, planar construction with many > >separate pickup coils in a grid. I have seen several test labs with this > >tool. As > >you indicated, the lead frames DO radiate substantially. Assuming buried >PCB > >traces, some of this radiation can be cancelled by routing the lead pad >back > >under the package before dropping the via. Aside from that, the tool pickup > >coils detect near fields; hence, the lead frames (because of their closer > >proximity to the pickup coils) indicate a disproportionately high field >level > >relative to any PCB surface (microstrip) traces. The field strength is > >comprised of > >first-order, second-order, and third-order rolloff terms. Therefore, the > >field > >signature would show much less relative differences (even with very small > >spacing displacements) because of an exponential rolloff in the coupled > >signal; > >hence, some test results may be misleading. Please be aware that I am in > >agreement with you on the benefits of low-profile lead packages. Any > >disbeliever > >should measure the fields from a small daughter board connected via > >standoffs of > >1/4 to 3/8 inch length, as the results will scare you. > > > >Re: your statement, "None of the papers did such an experiment in a way >that > >could be used to bet money on." > > > >As (many months) before, I disagree. I demonstrated the relative radiation > >and crosstalk performance of microstrip (50 & 100 Ohm lines), guarded > >microstrip > >(50 Ohms), stripline (50 Ohms), and guarded stripline (50 Ohms) as part of > >the (now ancient) Hewlett-Packard High-Speed Digital Design Seminar Series > >(that > >included such respected pros as Ed Sayre, Eric Bogatin, and Henri Merkelo). > >The results were clear that either containment (via an enclosure) or the > >use of > >stripline was needed for FCC or CISPR Class B compliance. The data and > >knowledge gained from these findings led to the redesign of scores (yes, > >hundreds) > >of EMI-deficient PCBs over the following decade that achieved a typical 20 >dB > >(some as high as 40 dB) reductions in radiated emissions. No one has yet to > >find that the HP spectrum analyzers, HP near-field probes, EMCO (far-field) > >antennas and near-field probes that I used (and still use) were technically > >deficient in any way. Additionally, my software predictions support the > >empirical > >test data as well. > > > >My concern (and the only reason I'm sending these comments) is that less > >experienced designers than yourself will think surface traces are "no > >problem" and > >NOT employ the many other routing techniques that you and I have learned >over > >the years to be beneficial (or mandatory) for a successful design. >Obviously, > >non-enclosed/shielded designs will suffer most from this oversight. > > > >Good engineering to all, > > > >Mike > > > >Michael L. Conn > >Owner/Principal Consultant > >Mikon Consulting > > > >*** Serving Your Needs with Technical Excellence *** > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > >For help: > >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.org > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > >or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > >For help: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > >List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > >List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu