[SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA - SI Books for your Library
- From: "Goodwin, Bernard" <bernard.goodwin@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx>, Roy Leventhal <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:42:25 -0400
It may help to have a library of SI Books.
0132209101 Digital Communications Test and Measurement
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0132209101
0132365049 Timing Analysis and Simulation for Signal Integrity Engineers
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0132365049
0132429616 Jitter, Noise, and Signal Integrity at High-Speed
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0132429616
0136152066 Power Integrity Modeling and Design for Semiconductors and
Systems
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0136152066
013141884X Signal Integrity Issues and Printed Circuit Board Design
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/013141884X
013142291X Handbook of Digital Techniques for High-Speed Design
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/013142291X
013141884X Signal Integrity Issues and Printed Circuit Board Design
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/013141884X
0130669466 Signal Integrity - Simplified
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0130669466
0133957241 High Speed Digital Design
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0133957241
013084408X High Speed Signal Propagation
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/013084408X
0130289043 Digital Signal Integrity
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0130289043
0130674818 Printed Circuit Board Designer's Reference
www.prenhallprofessional.com/title/0130674818
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Chris Cheng
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 5:23 PM
To: Roy Leventhal
Cc: Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal; olaney@xxxxxxxx;
avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
There is an old Chinese saying along the line of "frogs view of the
world underneath the well".
I am sitting underneath my well and yapping. I think I have said enough
in my last mail and I have nothing else to add.
Those who get what I am saying already got it, there is no point of
repeating. But the topic is sure appropriate, getting some SI education
in the USA. More than a few of us need it.
________________________________
From: Roy Leventhal [mailto:Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Mon 3/24/2008 1:39 PM
To: Chris Cheng
Cc: Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal; olaney@xxxxxxxx;
avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
Chris,
For the past six years I have been advocating the use of more simulation
tools among my EMI engineering colleagues (at work and in the IEEE EMC
Society), so I am not unsympathetic to some of your points.
I find many EMI engineers reluctant to use EDA tools and relatively few
simultaneously cognizant of theory, estimating (yellow pad), simulation,
and measurement in both SI and EMI. Meanwhile, I find continual progress
being made by EDA tool vendors that should be continually evaluated by
the EMI engineering discipline. I also find a growing level of
acceptance of, an interest in, modeling and simulation tools.
Historically, those EMI EDA tools have not been ready for prime time as
far as EMI engineers are concerned. So they do what they have to do to
get a product to pass regulatory: Test, measure, find and fix, and
iterate until they get a product to pass.
What I see is that when an EMI engineer is in a test cell measuring
conducted and radiated emissions and susceptibility they are working
with frequency spectrum scans. Those frequency spectrum scans are the
data they have to present, not diagrams of eye opening and other SI
plots. Simulating partial planes an IC package is part of the detailed
design but usually too much detail for them to simulate at the system
level.
My first question is, can you provide me some insight into your model
abstraction and simplification process? I usually can't afford
simulating a system down to the gate level when seeking EMI answers.
Some modern CMOS models incorporate around 250 factors for around 50
elements per gate and I/Os have multiple gates.
Also, what models are you using for the IC? Are you using Berkeley
SPICE, EKV, PSPICE, S-Parameter, large or small signal, or IBIS, or
what? I'm seeing evidence that factors we can control at the system
level are sometimes interactive AND non-linear and would like to know
the best models to use and their valid frequency, voltage, and
temperature limitations. I suspect that some of the non-linearities are
due to power system noise modulation of my IC I/Os. I also would like to
investigate if there is core-switching noise getting to my I/Os.
Since I'm trying to correlate with hardware I would also need to know
the distributions of the IC model parameters for the various parts on
the board, as well as the passive components, and the variables for your
dielectric uniformity, trace parameters, etc. I suspect that I'll have
to do a statistical simulation since in my prototypes I'm not quite sure
which part of the distribution my parts came from. I would like to
repeat the -50 dB you achieved especially since I would expect to verify
the results against hardware. What particular statistical method did you
use in achieving your results? And when you verified those results did
you do it against at least 25 working prototypes to remove the element
of chance?
How about your measurement repeatability, I assume its good. I know for
myself that when cables are moved just a bit on my test bench my
repeatability is a problem. The movement of objects in my anechoic
chamber and the use of different measurement antennas seem to cause
similar problems. Of course you have modeled all this in verifying your
results, so I seek your guidance since as you state you have many years
of both SI and EMI experience. Since I'm dealing with the safety of an
airplane I can't be too careful.
Also, I'm seeing changes in my EMI results with changes in the data
patterns on my boards and changes in the strengths of emitters in
various positions on my boards. So I'm sure that your 50 dB EMI
correlation must account for magnitude and phase at any place in your
measurement chamber.
One thing that upsets me is a 500 KHz switching power supply in my
system that is producing significant harmonics out to 50 MHz and beyond.
I know that if I simulate its effects that I'll have to use a SPICE EDA
tool that can model layout structure and converge with resonant
circuits. I haven't found one readily available that I can import my
layout from Allegro into. Unfortunately, I have to contend with such
beasties operating alongside my moderately fast digital stuff and I
can't quite do everything I want with the board stackup because I'm
dealing with 10s to 100s of amps in my system, not milliamps to
microamps.
One of my EMI colleagues in another company has become more interested
in simulation (I think I inspired him a little) and who is working with
some first class EMI EDA companies. A real breakthrough was achieved
when his technical contact said "Aha, you want a virtual test bench so
you can directly compare simulation to measurement." They're working on
it and achieving some good, if varied results. They'll need such a tool
when they need to do a quick turn-around on a design iteration. But, he
didn't indicate 50 dB correlations real soon. They had to simplify the
problem to get it to run in a reasonable time. One thing they didn't do
is model the antenna.
Do I believe that EMI modeling and simulation is an absolute necessity?
You bet I do. But, I see a different world with different emphasizes and
needs that will have to be addressed by EDA vendors before the much
criticized and much harried "average" EMI engineer can be successfully
engaged in making greater use of those tools.
I have many more questions about the issues I raised above and some
others I have. I'm sure that we'll get into them after you have
instructed me further in my deficiencies as you have already kindly
done. I know that I don't know near enough in my business and I'm open
to your instruction.
Best Regards,
Roy
Chris Cheng wrote:
> I walked many miles in EMI and still do.
> My company had never and will never have EMI only design engineers. I
> am responsible for anything that is not 1 and 0 in our system. I don't
> care if it is call SI or EMI. Analog is analog. Any engineer who work
> for me is capable of doing both.
> > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they can
> > make an entire
> > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
> > half-dozen principles
> I am still waiting for you to tell me how your EMI engineer can make
> their career out of my examples below.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Charlotte and/or Roy Leventhal
[mailto:crleventhal@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 8:08 PM
> *To:* Chris Cheng; olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>
> Chris,
> I'm heavily into using modeling and simulation. Check my website:
> http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com
<http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com/>=20
> <http://www.semiconductorsimulation.com/>. I'm also a great advocate
> of combining EDA tools with the yellow pad for maximum efficiency and
> understanding.
> I recently had/have the opportunity to do some EMI engineering. Before
> either SI engineers cast aspersions on EMI engineers or vice-versa I
> suggest they walk in the others' moccasins a few miles.
> You are right that EMI engineers will have to be better tool users in
> the future. Why don't you help them get started, as I am trying to do?
> Best Regards
> Roy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Chris Cheng [mailto:Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxx]
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:52 PM
> *To:* olaney@xxxxxxxx; Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the
USA
>
> I would love to learn how to model a multi-giga bit channel with
> accuracy down to -50db with a yellow pad.
> I would love to learn how to predict eye openings of heavily
> loaded DDR2/3 buses with multiple loads and multiple branches and
> driving positions under sso and crosstalk conditions with a yellow
> pad.
> I would love to learn how to model package interconnects that has
> imperfect return reference planes with a yellow pad.
> I would love to learn how to deliver power to a multi-giga hertz
> IC where the power grid and via structure is inherited 2 1/2 and
> 3D with a yellow pad.
> Are you sure we are talking about the same SI work here ? What
> does your average EMI engineer knows about the above anyways ?
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> *From:* si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of olaney@xxxxxxxx
> *Sent:* Sun 3/23/2008 2:07 PM
> *To:* Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx
> *Cc:* avtaarenator@xxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> *Subject:* [SI-LIST] Re: Best Signal integrity Schools in the USA
>
>
> The symptom we see today is that many designers are heavily
> reliant upon
> really big, expensive software tools to iterate empirical designs
into
> something workable. The same designer, given adequate
understanding
of
> the underlying principles, can often do 90% of the work on a
> yellow pad,
> then use software for cleanup and as a sanity check. When I see SI
> related job descriptions that want work experience with a big list
of
> tools, I can readily guess what the company mindset is:
> substitution of
> tools for competence, and bring in the consultants when they get
into
> trouble.
>
> Orin
>
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 14:53:44 -0500 Roy Leventhal
> <Roy.Leventhal@xxxxxxxx>
> writes:
> > Avtaar,
> >
> > It seems strange to me that in the present/coming years of
> > "microwave
> > digital" that we will be graduating logic designers who will be
> > unable to
> > get their signals across a PCB or keep those signals from
> > interfering with
> > other signals.
> >
> > As things stand today any EMI engineer can tell you that they
can
> > make an entire
> > career on fixing prototype SI/EMI problems based on the same
> > half-dozen principles
> > from SI/EMI 101. But, fixing problems in hardware instead of
> > catching them in the
> > virtual design not working smart. Part of the challenge of
working
> > smart is applying
> > principles and analysis early in development. The logic designer
is
> > best positioned
> > to do that or involve specialist to do it for him or her.
> >
> > First we had the analog age. Then we had the digital age. Now I
> > believe we
> > have the dawning of the age of fast impulse signals driving
logic
> > circuits.
> >
> > Meanwhile our schools are, as always, a day late and a dollar
short
> > - not
> > necessarily a few individual professors and schools here and
there.
> > When I got my
> > BSEE in 1962 my professors were still teaching me about vacuum
tubes
> > and had barely
> > started seriously considering teaching transistors. This is
despite
> > the fact that
> > industry had developed viable transistors for nearly a decade by
> > then.
> >
> > The IEEE EMC Society is just now making a credible effort to
address
> > signal
> > integrity. But, signal integrity has been a driving issue for
about
> > 20
> > years now.
> >
> > It is hard to evolve institutionalized cultures (schools,
> > professional societies, and
> > old-line companies) and thinking. They are, after all, in the
> > business of perpetuating
> > their PAST successes and expertise.
> >
> > The advice about UM-R is good. So is the advice about noting
which
> > professors and
> > schools are publishing in the latest technologies. Beyond that,
stay
> > informed and well
> > ead from industry-oriented trade magazines in those latest
> > technologies on your own.
> > Let me suggest High Frequency, Conformity, and the IEEE EMC
Society
> > quarterly newsletter.
> >
> > Lastly, here is a reading list of reference textbooks you can
> > consider perusing:
> >
> >
> > [1] Staff of Agilent Technologies, "Time Domain Reflectometry
> > Theory,"
> > Application Note 1304-2 Hewlett-Packard, 2006.
> >
> > See also:
> >
> > Staff of HP, "Time Domain Reflectometry Theory," Application
Note
> > 1304-2
> > Hewlett-Packard, 1988.
> > http://www.lthe.hmg.inpg.fr/medite/5966-4855E.pdf
> >
> > [2] Staff of Agilent, "Manuals: Network Analyzers," Various,
> > down-loadable, Agilent.
> >
>
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=3D153424.i.2&to=3D80039.=
k.1
&
>
<http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=3D153424.i.2&to=3D80039=
.k.
1&
>
> cc=3DUS&lc=3Deng&no=3D225
> >
> >
>
<http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/facet.jspx?c=3D153424.i.2&to=3D80039=
.k.
1
> &cc=3DUS&lc=3Deng&no=3D225>
> >
> >
> >
> > [3] C. Antonescu, P.D. Ewing, "EMI/RFI and Power Surge Withstand
> > Guidance for the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission."
> >
> > [4] Bruce R. Archambeault, "Shielding of Air Vent Holes," page
102
> > IEEE
> > EMC Society Newsletter, Issue # 215, Fall 2007
> >
> > [5] Bruce R. Archambeault and James L. Drewniak, /PCB Design for
> > Real
> > World EMI Control/, Springer, 2002. ISBN: 1-4020-7130-2
> >
> > [6] Bill Ashley, "Using the Network Analyzer as a Grid Dip
> > Oscillator,"
> > AN 132 AEA Technology, Inc., 2005
> >
>
http://www.aeatechnology.com/usermanuals/AN132%20Using%20the%20Network%2
0
> Analyzer%20as%20a%20Grid%20Dip%20Oscillator.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > [7] Eric Bogatin, /Signal Integrity: Simplified/, Prentice Hall,
> > 2004.
> > ISBN: 0-13-066946-6
> >
> > [8] Marty Brown, "Good Physical Layout Takes Black Magic Out of
> > Power
> > Supply Design," EDA Design Line, 2000.
> >
http://www.edadesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?article?ID=3D192200741
> >
> > [9] Nachyuck Chang, "Theory of Oscilloscope," SNU.
> > http://elpl.snu.ac.kr/csd07/lecturenote/4_dso.pdf
> >
> > [10] Sonia Ben Dhia, Mohamed Ramdani, and Etienne Sicard,
> > /Electromagnetic Compatibility of Integrated Circuits:
Techniques
> > for
> > Low Emission and Susceptibility,/ Springer, 2005. ISBN:
> >
> > [11] Mike Eberly and Larry Dunleavy, "Student's Introduction to
the
> > HP8714 RF Network Analyzer," 1998
> > http://ee.eng.usf.edu/people/dunleavy/references/reading2.pdf
> >
> > [12] Morris Engelson and Fred Telewski, /Spectrum Analyzer
Theory
> > and
> > Applications,/ Artech House, 1974. ISBN-10: 089006024X, ISBN-13:
> > 978-0890060247
> >
> > [13] Y. W. Fowlkes, C. L. Creveling, /Engineering Methods for
Robust
> >
> > Product Design/, Addison-Wesley, 1995.
> >
> > [14] Gene Garat, and Staff of IBM, "EMSAT Rules Checker 16
Rules,"
> > Moss
> > Bay EDA and IBM, http://www.mossbayeda.com/EMSAT-Rules.pdf,
March
> > 2006.
> >
> > [15] Michael Hiebel, /Fundamentals of Vector Network Analysis/,
> > Rohde &
> > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-0
> >
> > [16] Todd Hubing, "Circuit Board Layout to Reduce Noise Emission
and
> >
> > Susceptibility," University of Missouri - Rolla, March 2006
> >
> > [17] Multivariate Statistical Analysis: IBM Data Explorer,
> > http://www.research.ibm.com/dx/
> >
> > [18] Staff, ICEM #62014-3, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part 3
> > Integrated Circuits Electrical Modeling," IEC Standard
Proposal/,
> > /2002.
> >
> > [19] Staff, IEC # 61000-4-2, "Electromagnetic Compatibility Part
4-2
> >
> > Testing and Measurement Techniques - Electrostatic Discharge
> > Immunity
> > Test, IEC, 2001. ISBN: 2-8318-5687-6
> >
> > [20] Yoonjae Lee and Raj Mittra, "Electromagnetic Interference
> > Mitigation by Using a Spread-Spectrum Approach," IEEE
Transactions
> > on
> > Electromagnetic Compatibility, Vol. 44, No. 2, May 2002.
> >
> > [22] Roy Leventhal and Lynne Green, Semiconductor Modeling: For
> > Simulating Signal, Power and Electromagnetic Integrity,
Springer,
> > 2006.
> > ISBN 0-387-24159-0
> >
> > [23] Michel Mardiguian, /Controlling Radiated Emissions by
Design,
> > 2^nd
> > Ed.,/ Springer, 2001. ISBN: 0792379780
> >
> > [24] F. D. Martzloff, "Lightening and NEMP Transient Protection
with
> >
> > Metal Oxide Varistors," General Electric Technical Information
> > Series
> > 82CRD084, 1982.
> >
> > [25] Staff, Maxim, "A Beginners Guide to Filter Topologies,"
> > Application
> > Note 1762 Maxim, Inc., 2002,
> > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1762
> >
> > [26] Staff, Maxim, "EMI/EMC Suppression in Audio/Video
Interfaces,"
> > Application Note 3882 Maxim, Inc., 2006,
> > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/3882
> >
> > [27] Scott Mee, Roy Leventhal, Al Wexler and Mike Ventham,
> > "Simulation
> > for the Suppression of PCB Emissions in Digital Telematics
Devices,"
> >
> > ITEM Update 2002, p56.
> >
> > [28] Staff of Mentor Graphics, "Design Rule Checks (DRC) for
> > QuietExpert," Mentor Graphics, June 2005
> >
> > [29] Staff of National Instruments, "Noise Figure Measurement
with
> > the
> > National Instruments RF Signal Generator and RF Vector Signal
> > Analyzer,"
> > National Instruments, 2006
> > http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/3737
> >
> > [30] Henry W. Ott, /Noise Reduction Techniques in Electronic
> > Systems,
> > 2^nd Ed./, John Wiley & Sons, 1988. ISBN: 0-471-85068-3
> >
> > [31] Edward Pasahow, /Electronics Pocket Reference, 2^nd Ed/.,
> > McGraw-Hill, 1994. ISBN 0-07-048737-5
> >
> > [32] Clayton R. Paul, Introduction to Electromagnetic
Compatibility,
> >
> > John Wiley & Sons, 1992. ISBN: 0-471-54927-4
> >
> > [33] R. A. Pease, /Troubleshooting Analog Circuits/, Newnes,
1991.
> > ISBN:
> > 0750694998
> >
> > [34] R. Perez, Editor, /Handbook of Electromagnetic
Compatibility,/
> > Academic Press, Inc. 1995.
> >
> > [35] A. Peterson, S. Ray & R. Mittra, Computational Methods for
> > Electromagnetics, IEEE Press & Oxford University Press, 1998.
> >
> > [36] M. S. Phadke, /Quality Engineering Using Robust Design/,
> > Prentice-Hall, 1989.
> >
> > [37] Muhammad H. Rashid, Power /Electronics: Circuits, Devices
and
> > Applications, 2^nd Ed./, Prentice Hall, 1993. ISBN 0-13-678996-X
> >
> > [38] Christoph Rauscher, /Fundamentals of Spectrum Analysis/,
Rohde
> > &
> > Schwarz, ISBN: 978-3-939837-00-8
> >
> > [39] Staff, /Environmental Conditions and Test Procedures for
> > Airborne
> > Equipment, DO-160E,/ RTCA, Inc., 2004
> >
> > [41] Madhavan Swaminathan and A. Ege Engin, /Power Integrity
> > Modeling
> > and Design for Semiconductors and Systems,/ Prentice Hall, 2008.
> > ISBN:
> > 0-13-615206-6
> >
> > [42] Staff of Wavecrest, "Oscilloscope - Getting Started,"
Wavecrest
> >
> > 2001.
> >
>
http://www.wavecrest.com/technical/VISI_6_Getting_Started_Guides/6oscill
o
> scope.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > [44] Wikipedia, "Electronic test equipment"
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_test_equipment
> >
> > [45] Wikipedia, "Insulated-gate bipolar transistor"
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGBT
> >
> > [46] A. B. Williams & F. J. Taylor, /Electronic Filter Design
> > Handbook,
> > 3^rd Ed./, McGraw-Hill, 1995.
> >
> > [47] Staff X2Y, "App Note # 3008, V1, Get the Most from X2Y
> > Capacitors
> > with Proper Attachment Techniques," X2Y Attenuators, LLC.
2/23/2006.
> >
> >
> >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> >
> > <#_ftnref1>
> >
> >
> > Good Luck
> >
> > Roy Leventhal
> >
> >
> >
> > Avtaar Singh wrote:
> > > Gurus:
> > > Can someone please name the Top 5 Signal Integrity schools in
the
> > US, for
> > > me?
> > >
> > > Thanks for the kind help!
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Avtaar
> > >
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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