[SI-LIST] Re: Article discussion on bad packages
- From: "Russell D. Moser" <r.moser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <hassan@xxxxxxxx>, "'silist'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:03:37 -0500
I recollect that there always was and always will be issues on
cross-application transfers - not only from the aspect of the
translation itself but the differences in the way geometry is drawn.
When we started using ANSOFT at AMP in the late 80's (when it was very
young) we had a dxf translator. We soon found that we had to coordinate
with the mechanical designers whom created the geometry to alert them to
habits that they had developed that did not impact the visuality (I
think I just invented a word!) of the work but had underlying database
issues (i.e. when copying an object, the source for the copy was
duplicated and overlayed - not a problem to the eye but you could
imaging the geom engine choking!).
So we muddled through those issues early on and then ANSOFT and others
(double precision numbers versus single in the raw geom. Data and the
like) and got to some semblance of order. We then started a formal
modeling of many AMP connectors in a production-type environment. Thing
went well until the Z-axis came into play.
The leap to 3d analysis and it potential for extracting parameters
tantalized us all and raised the specter of importing files once again.
I was an active 3D modeler up until the ability to pull in stereo
lithography files in the late 90's so I have gone on with creating my
own geometry or importing basic constructs of the component and
manipulating them within HFSS directly.
Well, there is my monthly epistle to the masses. Anecdotal at best,
bit-bucket bound at worst.
BTW
This has been an interesting year on the reflector...I have learned many
things....and look forward to a productive 2005. Regards to you all.
Russell D. Moser
Orion Group
r.moser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.theoriongroup.net
US Phone: 717.914.0116
US Facsimile: 717.704.0051
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Hassan O. Ali
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:27 AM
> To: silist
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Article discussion on bad packages
>
>
> Giancarlo,
>
> Rotem's remark on Ansoft HFSS is correct. You always have
> your fingers crossed when you import Cadence package
> databases into HFSS. In my experience, most of the time I
> have to make painful geometrical tweaking to help HFSS
> successfully mesh the problem. I'm particularly annoyed by
> 10's or even 100's of model, contact, and proximity errors
> that show up almost every time I model a package using HFSS.
> Even as I speak I have a model that has failed to mesh and
> the Meshmaker has reported 699 errors!!
>
> The software simply gets severely challenged if the model has
> very short edges in close proximity to long edges which is a
> given for many high-speed packages. I wish there was away to
> instruct HFSS to automatically eliminate all very small edges
> that have negligible EM effects. The meshing program also has
> to be improved to suit package environments which is
> drastically different from simple waveguide, transmission
> line, and antenna model environments that HFSS has already perfected.
>
> Best regards.
>
> Hassan.
>
>
>
> On Dec 22, "giancarlo guida" <gguida@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Sir,
> > I am really surprised about your bad experience with the interface
> > between Cadence and Ansoft.
> >
> > I personally support this interface working on Ansoft side I
> > personally support customer like ST and MICRON, IBM and
> they are able
> > to import their design in our tools.
> >
> > At the moment we have several interface with EDA tool
> including APD,
> > Allegro Virtuoso, Synopsis Mentor Zuken
> >
> > If you are not getting good results with the traslation I would
> > suggest you to contact directly the Ansoft support engineer to fix
> > your problem
> >
> > Giancarlo
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rotem Gazit" <rotemg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "silist" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:01 AM
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Article discussion on bad packages
> >
> >
> > =20
> > This article lists some of painful issues that are well
> known to all
> > dealing with high-speed IC packaging.=20 I would like to add to the
> > obstacles listed in the article the lack of high speed oriented
> > substrate layout designers and awareness for high-speed
> requirements
> > and design methodology among substrate vendors.
> > This situation is much painful for fables IC vendors who
> usually rely
> > on the substrate vendors for the substrate layout.
> >
> > One point I disagree with the information given in the
> article is the
> > availability of "good" EDA simulation tools.
> > As far as my experience goes the only available option is
> using high
> > end RF simulators like Ansoft HFSS which also needs lots of
> tweaking
> > before being able to import correctly a routed database. I've spend
> > few week with the new Cadence 15.2 integrated 3D modeler - couldn't
> > get any useful result. So did the Cadence the application
> engineer :-[ .
> >
> >
> > Rotem Gazit
> > Director of System & Product Engineering.
> > Mysticom Semiconductor Ltd.
> > Tel: +972 9 8636424
> > Fax: +972 9 8636466
> > 1 Hazoran St, Netanya 42504, Israel.
> > www.mysticom.com
> >
> > =20
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
> > Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:27 PM
> > To: silist
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Article discussion on bad packages
> >
> > I'd be interested in peoples thoughts about the following
> article from
> > today's EE Times.
> >
>
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