[SI-LIST] AW: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
- From: "Havermann, Gert" <Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Hirshtal Itzhak" <ihirshtal@xxxxxxxxxx>, "si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 12:12:29 +0000
Hi Itzhak,
what I meant is that the channel creates ISI, and the chip creates ISI, but the
chip can not include the Channel ISI.
The total Jitter of the transmitter can't include channel ISI.
The overall Channel Jitter will include ISI of the Chip and the Channel.
BR
Gert
Von: Hirshtal Itzhak [mailto:ihirshtal@xxxxxxxxxx]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 14:06
An: Havermann, Gert; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: RE: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
Hi gert,
You state that they are both not absolutely correct, but your explanation after
that doesn't seem compatible with your statement. The ISI within the chip and
package isn't part of the channel ISI!
Regards
Itzhak
----------------------------------------
Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3, D-32339 Espelkamp;
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRB 8808;
Vertretungsberechtige Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Kfm. Edgar-Peter Düning,
Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 1:02 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] WG: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
Resent
Von: Havermann, Gert
Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 12:50
An: 'Hirshtal Itzhak'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: AW: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
Hi Itzhak,
I think both isn't absolutely correct. The right in the definition of total
Chip jitter is, it contains all Jitter aspects including ISI within the chip
and package. You Channel will have additional ISI, but that's not part of the
transmitter specification (or at least shouldn't be).
As you know, I'm not using Hyperlynx. ADS asks for DCD, Clock DCD, PJ (in
amplitude and frequency) and RJ. I usually take the DCD from the datasheet, and
put the UBHPJ into RJ and then set PJ in a way that my transmit Eye shows the
Total Jitter. This isn't 100% correct, but it worked well in the past.
BR
Gert
Von: Hirshtal Itzhak [mailto:ihirshtal@xxxxxxxxxx]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2013 12:14
An: Havermann, Gert; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: RE: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
Hi again,
Let me try to focus on a certain aspect of my problem:
The sRIO Level II spec details the Tx Jitter values as follows:
Eye Mask = 125mV
Uncorrelated Bounded High Probability Jitter = 0.15UI ptp
Duty Cycle Distortion = 0.05UI ptp
Total Jitter = 0.30UI ptp
The question is: what do these parameters mean?
My understanding: The Transmitter device maximum allowed DCD & jitter.
What the device vendor seems to tell me: The maximum actual DCD & jitter
present on the Transmitter pins due to both internal jitter generation and
channel ISI.
So my 1st question is - which is correct?
Then, if the 1st interpretation is true, it seems I need to somehow enter all
of the above detailed parameters to my simulation transmitter model, shouldn't
I?
On the other hand, if the 2nd interpretation is true, then it seems I have to
ask the device vendor to tell me what's the actual jitter generated by the
device itself, shouldn't I?
Thanks for your help on this matter!
Itzhak Hirshtal
----------------------------------------
Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3, D-32339 Espelkamp;
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRB 8808;
Vertretungsberechtige Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Kfm. Edgar-Peter Düning,
Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 3:00 PM
To: Hirshtal Itzhak; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
Hi Itzhak,
Quite honestly I don't know hyperlinx in that detail. You should ask the
support or maybe some helpfiles to find out which type of Jitter has to be used.
You could try to add one jitter component at a time and measure the jitter in
the simulation result to check if the input Jitter equals the output Jitter.
This way you can find out which parameter to change in which way.
BR
Gert
----------------------------------------
Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3, D-32339 Espelkamp;
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRB 8808;
Vertretungsberechtige Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Kfm. Edgar-Peter Düning,
Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Hirshtal Itzhak [mailto:ihirshtal@xxxxxxxxxx]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juni 2013 13:36
An: Havermann, Gert; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: RE: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
Hi Gert,
I did exactly that!!
The question was: Am I correct in doing so?
And what about the non-random jitter? Did I set it up correctly?
Also, I've heard an opinion saying I shouldn't set these jitter values at all,
but take instead the jitter specification of the Transmitter Reference Clock!
Is that true?
Regards
Itzhak
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:58 PM
To: Hirshtal Itzhak; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
The Jitter Values can be given in either "RMS" or "Peak to Peak". Check what
kind of input the simulator engine needs, and if it agrees to the datasheet
numbers you punched in. If simulator uses RMS and Datasheet gives P2P, then you
need to convert the jitter values using a BER based conversion table.
BR
Gert
----------------------------------------
Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3, D-32339 Espelkamp;
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRB 8808;
Vertretungsberechtige Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Kfm. Edgar-Peter Düning,
Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Im
Auftrag von Hirshtal Itzhak
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Juni 2013 11:57
An: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: [SI-LIST] Transmitter Jitter Setup for simulations of 5Gbps SERDES
Hello all,
I have a question relating to the proper use of jitter in hi-speed simulations
of several Gbps pairs.
I've been using HyperLynx IBIS-AMI Channel Analysis tool in order to simulate
5Gbps channels going from one PCB to another one through a motherboard.
I use IBIS-AMI models from the Tx/Rx vendors and S-Parameter models for the
connectors involved.
The main problem for me is understanding how to use the jitter specification
for the transmitter.
The transmitter data sheet defines miscellaneous Near-End (Tx) Template
Intervals, part of which are jitter intervals, which include T_UBHPJ
(Uncorrelated Bounded High Probability Jitter) of 0.15UIptp, T_DCD (Duty-Cycle
Distortion) of 0.05UIptp and T_TJ (Total Jitter) of 0.30UIptp.
I have been using these parameters as follows inside the simulation tool setup:
- Dual Dirac Jitter: 1st mean = -0.1UI, 2nd mean = +0.1UI (accounting
approximately for the sum of the 1st 2 jitter parameters, which equals 0.2UI)
- Sigma of Random Jitter = 0.01UI, which results from subtracting
the1st 2 parameters from the total jitter (yielding 0.1UI) and dividing the
result by 14 (the ratio [for BER of 10**(-12)] between peak-to-peak jitter and
Sigma. I rounded the final result up a little to get 0.01UI.
So, to conclude: Have I used the simulation tool's jitter setup correctly to
account for the Tx jitter definitions? Because when I do that, I get a closed
eye (relative to the Rx eye-mask spec). Without these jitter elements the eye
is completely open!
Also, what BER ratio should I use for the Sigma definition? Should it be
according to the desired BER on the receiver?
Thanks for your help
Itzhak Hirshtal
Elta
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