[SI-LIST] Re: AW: Re: Fiber Weave Effect
- From: "Alexander Ippich" <Alexander.Ippich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "si-list" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:35:05 +0100
Gert,
what do you consider to be "regular glass" in your statement "E-glass is not
doing this job halve as good, even though it is already significantly improving
the weave effect compared to regular Glass"?
The designation E-glass has nothing to do with the homogenity of the glass
reinforced dielectric. It is simply a shortcut for the composition of the glass
fibre itself (IPC4412, 3.1.6). Typical E-glass having a Dk of around 6 is of
course resulting in a significant Dk delta to most resin systems that are in
use in high speed circuits and therefore in the fibre weave effect.
Beside E-glass, there are several options like NE glass (used by Nelco under
the designation SI glass) or L-glass that have a significantly lower Dk than
E-glass. But I believe that they are not used in the industry very much.
Nelco's SI glass reinforced laminates are basically the only ones, that are
used on a regular basis, but in pretty low volumes compared to E-glass.
Best regards,
alex
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:03 AM
To: si-list
Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: Re: Fiber Weave Effect
Istvan,
another property of determining if the glass is spread or not, is to look at
the Glass fabric thickness. Unfortunately this thickness is not given in many
datasheets, but when they are, you can clearly see the differences for equal
prepreg thickness and it's differences between glass thicknesses. That's why I
prefer the term "flat weave".
The problem with equal Prepreg names having different glass styles is
historical. The Flat weave was invented to improve laser drilling, and then
used in special "Laser drill materials". So if you look for laser drill able
FR4, you will most likely find flat weave without any note saying that it is a
"non standard" Glass weave.
Currently the only way to determine what you get is to ask the Material
Manufacturer, and do cross sections or x-rays of sample materials.
Even though flat weave doesn't guarantee 100% homogeneity, it is homogenious
enough keep the weave effect below problematic limits for nowadays high speed
digital applications, at least from my experience over the past years. E-glass
is not doing this job halve as good, even though it is already significantly
improving the weave effect compared to regular Glass.
It would be great if the IPC would resolve the naming convention in a new spec
version.
BR
Gert
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-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Im
Auftrag von Alexander Ippich
Gesendet: Freitag, 18. Januar 2013 08:01
An: buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx; si-list
Cc: Alexander Ippich
Betreff: [SI-LIST] Re: Fiber Weave Effect
Istvan,
this is another issue, where the standardization of for example IPC lags behind
the needs of the industry quite a bit...
You are absolutely right, looking at the IPC 4412 does not tell you, if this is
a "spread" glass or not. I have put "spread" in double quotes, because this
term is not specified itself yet (to my knowledge).
Terms like square weave only adds to this confusion. These are terms coined by
individual manufacturers. In the case of square weave, this is something Isola
has a patent to.
Regarding "spread" glass, there are the newer glass styles, like 1067, 1086,
3313,.. that are woven in a way to minimize the gaps between the glass strands
right from the beginning. But be careful, this does not mean, that the glass is
totally homogenous - it still has gaps (high resin content) and conglomeration
of glass fibres (low resin content).
Then there are base material manufacturers, that still use the traditional
glass styles (like 106, 1080), but use a process like water spreading or air
spreading to open up the strands of glass to get to a more homogenous
distribution of the glass fibres.
Again, since there is no standard yet, you can not put a number to the "degree
of spread". You need to look at sample pictures (and yes, very likely the nicer
ones will be shown around).
Bottom line, since all of these glass styles do not result in a "100% tight
fabric", they will never solve the fibre weave effect completely. So at the end
of the day, you will need to do actual measurements on actual prototypes.
Best regards,
alex
_______________________________________________________________
Alexander Ippich
Sr. Signal Integrity Engineer
Multilayer Technology GmbH & Co. KG
Herrenberger Strasse 110
71034 Boeblingen - Germany
Email alexander.ippich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pers. haftender Gesellschafter: Multilayer Technology Geschäftsführungs GmbH,
Geschäftsführer: Werner Widmann
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Böblingen, Amtsgericht Böblingen HRA242264
http://www.multek.com
Endless innovation creates changes for tomorrow
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Istvan Nagy
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 5:10 AM
To: si-list
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Fiber Weave Effect
Hi all,
I would like to join this conversation.
I am trying to find out about a possibly complete list of available
spread-glass materials.
Who makes these, and which products, which glass styles?
From different sources what I have found is not consistent.
- For example some people say new glass styles were invented to have thin
materials with spread-glass fabric, so we can distinguish.
- I think I have read somewhere (don't remember where) that existing glass
styles (like 1080) have traditional and also spread-glass option. If both are
called 1080, then how to distinguish?
I found an IPC spec (IPC-xxx amendment 1) That lists glass styles, but how to
find out which is a loose fabric and which ones are tight spread-glass fabrics?
Some Isola datasheets mention spread-glass and square-weave glass (what's
that?) as option, while some other Isola datasheets only mention standard
E-glass option. Most material manufacturer datasheets don't mention anything
about this.
For example someone said 1067 is spread-glass. Is it guaranteed that if we get
1067 anywhere it will be 99% tight spread-glass fabric?
I also saw photo examples of spread glass fabrics in technical papers, but I
guess those have shown the nicest ones. How does an 1067 or 1086 really look
like? Do they completely solve the fiber weave effect (100% tight fabric) or
they just improve on it (littlebit smaller holes than usual)?
Does anyone have a list of specific existing materials and glass styles with
spread-glass?
I mean not just 1-2 examples, but a longer list if possible.
Regards,
Istvan Nagy
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott McMorrow
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 10:41 AM
To: dudi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Fiber Weave Effect
Here is our paper on laminate weave skew from 7 years ago.
http://www.teraspeed.com/papers/The%20Impact%20of%20PCB%20Laminate%20Weave%20paper.pdf
http://www.teraspeed.com/papers/Laminate%20Weave_DesignCon%20Slides.pdf
--
Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
16 Stormy Brook Road
Falmouth, ME 04105
(401) 284-1827 Business
http://www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Dudi Tash <dudi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi All,
> I'm looking for some books regarding the Fiber Weave Effect. Good
> articles are welcomed as well. I've read the Altera and PCISIG papers
>
> Please advise
>
> Best Regards,
> Dgtronix Ltd. I Founder & CEO I Dudi Tash
> eFax: +972-3-7256490 I Mobile: +972-54-6345629 I Office:
> +972-9-9660967 www.dgtronix-tech.com<http://www.dgtronix-tech.com/>
>
> [cid:image001.jpg@01CDEC2E.48C05F30]<http://www.dgtronix-tech.com/>
> [cid:image002.jpg@01CDEC2E.48C05F30]
>
> [cid:image003.jpg@01CDEC2E.48C05F30]
>
>
> *This email contains confidential and proprietary information of
> Dgtronix
> Ltd.*
>
>
>
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Scott McMorrow
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
16 Stormy Brook Road
Falmouth, ME 04105
(401) 284-1827 Business
http://www.teraspeed.com
Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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