[SI-LIST] AW: Re: AW: S-parameter model from Datasheet

  • From: "Havermann, Gert" <Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:55:59 +0000

Weston,
if you build a TL or RLGC model that just fits S11 and S21 magnitudes, how can 
you ever be sure get the phase right, and how good is a model with wrong phase?
In addition, the curves in the datasheet don't come with a description of the 
test setup they were taken with. Maybe there are some traces included, or the 
solder joints and Package effects were de-embedded.
Chis' simulation would show wrong resonances of the discontinuities if the 
phase is off, and if other information got wrong as well.

As I said, for good simulations results he needs either a vendor model from 
omron, or he needs to measure the device by himself and then create a model 
based on his measurements. For the latter, your method will work fine.

BR
Gert



----------------------------------------
Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH & Co. KG; Sitz der Gesellschaft: 
Espelkamp; Registergericht: Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRA 5596; persönlich 
haftende Gesellschafterin: HARTING Electronics Management GmbH; Sitz der 
Komplementär-GmbH: Espelkamp; Registergericht der Komplementär-GmbH: Bad 
Oeynhausen; Register-Nr. der Komplementär-GmbH: HRB 8808; Geschäftsführer: 
Edgar-Peter Duening, Torsten Ratzmann, Dr. Alexander Rost

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Im 
Auftrag von Beal, Weston
Gesendet: Dienstag, 6. März 2012 20:40
An: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: S-parameter model from Datasheet

Cris,

The best option is to get a good model from the component vendor, but there are 
other options. You can get a good approximation from a manually tuned circuit.

You know that the interconnect is mostly just a resistor, and the insertion 
loss shows that it becomes more lossy with increased frequency. You can use a 
small series inductance to model that. Start with a series resistor and 
inductor. Simulate just this circuit with appropriate ports (including 
impedances) and tune the resistor and inductor values to match the component 
data that you have.

Another important thing to consider is the overall effect of this component on 
your signal. If you change the inductor or resistor value of my suggested model 
by a factor of 2 or 5, how much does that change the signal through the 
complete channel? Maybe the fine accuracy of the relay model doesn't matter 
much in the total model, and a good approximation gives you the information 
that you need without spending a lot of time searching for or creating a super 
accurate model.

Regards,
Weston


-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Havermann, Gert
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 7:40 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: S-parameter model from Datasheet

Hi Cris,

if they can't provide you any models, you are srewed. The Plots don't show any 
phase information, so you can't build your own S-Parameters. Without those it 
is also impossible to create a behavioral model.

I think you have to get yourself a sample and test it if omron is not 
willing/able to give you another model or at least phase information.

BR
Gert


----------------------------------------
Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH & Co. KG; Sitz der Gesellschaft: 
Espelkamp; Registergericht: Bad Oeynhausen; Register-Nr.: HRA 5596; persönlich 
haftende Gesellschafterin: HARTING Electronics Management GmbH; Sitz der 
Komplementär-GmbH: Espelkamp; Registergericht der Komplementär-GmbH: Bad 
Oeynhausen; Register-Nr. der Komplementär-GmbH: HRB 8808; Geschäftsführer: 
Edgar-Peter Duening, Torsten Ratzmann, Dr. Alexander Rost

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Im 
Auftrag von Cristian Gozzi
Gesendet: Dienstag, 6. März 2012 15:39
An: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: [SI-LIST] S-parameter model from Datasheet

Hi folks
I have to use one RF-Relay for a 1.6Gbps diff.channel and I want to simulate 
full path (driver + diif_pair + RF-RELAY + diff_pair + receiver)

I only got its datasheet with s-parameter plot (see link below) and I don't 
have any model (neither S-parameter nor RLC model)

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g6ku-2f-rf.pdf

My question is: how can I include RF-RELAY model inside my channel?

The only thing I have in my mind is to create my own touchstone file and insert 
value I can read from S-parameters plot in datasheet...
but I don't have any info about phase!

what can I do?

I appreciate your comment

Thanks
Cris


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