[SI-LIST] Re: AW: FR4 Permittivity
- From: "Yuriy Shlepnev" <shlepnev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <b.hargin@xxxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 08:23:42 -0800
Istvan,
I think this is sink or swim case, especially in context of broadband material
characterization. Broadband models are needed for the analysis up to 20-50 GHz
and there are no such models available from any manufacturer. Though, a few
frequency points measured with a strip resonator technique and provided by
manufacturers may be be used to build broadband models.
Here is an example for Nelco-4000. A couple of years ago we did experimental
identification of Nelco-4000-13EP dielectric with GMS-parameters up to 50 GHz
and the results were reported in this DesignCon 2011 paper
http://www.simberian.com/AppNotes/13-WA4Paper_Shlepnev.pdf
Dk used to define wideband Debye model was consistent with the data provided by
the manufacturer
http://www.pa.msu.edu/hep/atlas/l1calo/reference/other/circuit_board/park_nelco_4000-13_laminate.pdf
Dk at 10 GHz was identified as 3.8 instead of 3.7 as in the specs. The
difference can be explained by difference in strip width used in our experiment
and by the manufacturer. Effective Dk is larger for narrower strips for layered
dielectrics that are anisotropic by construction.
Though, LT at 10 GHz identified in our 2011 paper was considerably larger then
in specs. We have also observed increase of LT with the frequency. Specs showed
almost flat Dk from 1 to 10 GHz (and in our experiment Dk was flat all the way
up to 50 GHz), that should correspond to very small and also almost
frequency-independent LT.
I have re-visited the case in the recent tutorial at DesignCon2013:
http://www.simberian.com/AppNotes/14-MP2_Shlepnev_ElementsOfDecompositionalAnalysisOfInterconnects.pdf
- see slides 84-92 for Nelco and slides 143-160 for Megtron 6. Almost
frequency-independent behavior of Dk and LT with the data from the manufacturer
specs may actually work quite well, but all the additional losses have to be
attributed to the roughness and the roughness model should be appropriately
identified. That makes the material characterization case even worse - no data
for broadband roughness models is available from the manufacturers almost at
all.
See also similar case for Megtron 6 in this presentation from DesignCon 2013:
http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/5-WA4_Slides_Which_One_Is_Better_Comparing.pdf
slides 20-31.
Best regards,
Yuriy
Yuriy Shlepnev, Ph.D.
President, Simberian Inc.
3030 S Torrey Pines Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89146, USA
Office +1-702-876-2882; Fax +1-702-482-7903
Cell +1-206-409-2368
Skype: Shlepnev
www.simberian.com
Simbeor – Accurate, Fast, Easy and Affordable Electromagnetic Signal Integrity
Software
2010 and 2011 DesignVision Award Winner
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Istvan Nagy
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 7:13 PM
To: b.hargin@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: FR4 Permittivity
Hi,
I am also trying to get the info about Nelco4000-13SI and Meteorwave-1000 from
Park since I talked to them on DesignCon.
The guy keeps saying (by email) that he is trying to locate the data for me.
Almost the same with Isola (I-Speed and I-Terra), I asked them on DesignCon,
but they didnt get back to me, they didnt give me a business card either.
I was trying to locate the IsoStack or IsoDesign on their website, but no luck.
Is it public? How to get it?
With Panasonic/Iteq/Nanya it was easier. Panasonic even has all in the
datasheet.
Regards,
Istvan Nagy
Fortinet
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hargin (In-Circuit Design)
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:55 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: FR4 Permittivity
Even with a password (for Nelco), it's a bit like trying to find a Sasquatch.
I.e., if you believe the data's going to be there, you're more likely to invest
the time ... but you're still not likely to find it.
Detailed data (e.g. Dk and Df by frequency and resin content) isn't up there at
this point. I'm working with them to get more complete data (e.g., Dk, Df,
Thickness, Tg, frequency, resin content) into our materials library, but we're
not quite there yet.
Bill Hargin
In-Circuit Design, USA
Software & SI Simulation for High-Speed PCB Design
(425) 301-4425 • b.hargin@xxxxxxxxxx • Skype: bill.hargin
Online: www.icd.com.au
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee [mailto:leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:22 AM
To: asparky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: b.hargin@xxxxxxxxxx; Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx;
cyril.chastang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: FR4 Permittivity
If you get permission by completing a request for rights, you will get a
password, etc. that lets you get at the data.
In the case of Isola, their Isostack gets you to the detailed data.
-----Original Message-----
From: Aubrey Sparkman
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:20 AM
To: Lee
Cc: <b.hargin@xxxxxxxxxx> ; <Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx> ;
<cyril.chastang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: FR4 Permittivity
Lee,
I went to those sites and could find nothing that was construction specific.
Only high level marketing info.
Do you have a way to get more detailed info?
Thanks,
Aubrey
On Feb 22, 2013, at 12:02 PM, "Lee " <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Sure! It is www.parkelectro.com or www.parknelco.com
>
> Isola is www.isola-group.com
>
> Isola has the better selection of laminates as well as the better
> literature explaining laminates.
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Aubrey Sparkman
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 7:29 AM
> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: <b.hargin@xxxxxxxxxx> ; <Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx> ;
> <cyril.chastang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: FR4 Permittivity
>
> Lee,
> Could you share your Nelco link? I've been unable to find anything
> online for Nelco other than the standard nominal (50%resin) data
> sheet. The local support has given me a construction table, but he
> says they don't have a good tool to determine pressed thicknesses.
>
> Isola, on the other hand, has a very nice tool online called IsoStack.
> Check it out!
>
> Thanks!
> Aubrey
>
>
> On Feb 21, 2013, at 6:36 PM, "Lee " <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Couldn't agree more. Both Isola and Nelco have their materials data
>> on line so there is no reason to guess.
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Bill Hargin (In-Circuit Design)
>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:13 PM
>> To: Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx ; cyril.chastang@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: FR4 Permittivity
>>
>> Hi Cyril:
>>
>> As you're suspecting, a Dk of 2.173 is simply beyond the reach of FR-4.
>> The
>> lowest Dk I know of for 370HR is 3.63, and that would be with 71%
>> resin for
>> 2 mil thickness, 106 glass at 5-10GHz. I don't the discrepancy here
>> has anything to do with resin content, frequency, or temperature,
>> however, as even 100% resin wouldn't get you to that value at any
>> temperature or frequency. I see this kind of thing at least once a
>> week, where a PCB fabricator - who is serving a bunch of customers
>> every month - fails or forgets to edit a value (Dk, Zo, Zdiff, etc.)
>> from a previous customer's stackup spreadsheet (or PDF, by the time
>> it gets to you). In fact, this is my second one of these *today*.
>> (The other one involved FR406.)
>>
>> It's one of those caveat emptor situations ("let the buyer beware").
>> In my opinion, engineers should be planning and validating stackups
>> themselves to make sure that this foundational component of SI,
>> timing, crosstalk, and EMC is dialed in properly. Trusting your
>> company's 1000s of hours of design work to someone who has probably
>> never designed a PCB, is serving 50++ customers per month, and who
>> understands fabrication processes, but not electrical details of your
>> design doesn't make sense to me.
>>
>> Our dielectric library (available in our eval) has the Dk numbers
>> you're looking for. (www.icd.com.au > Stackup Planner > Evaluation.)
>>
>> Bill Hargin
>> In-Circuit Design, USA
>> Software & SI Simulation for High-Speed PCB Design
>> (425) 301-4425 • b.hargin@xxxxxxxxxx • Skype: bill.hargin
>> Online: www.icd.com.au
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