Han, I use (for years now) MWOffice. The user interface is very easy to pickup and the support is excellent. It does have a 2.5D field solver (2D layered structures) and a 3D solver. It has linking mechanisms to a true 3D solver (like Sonnet). For problems in the GHz range, the harmonic balance simulator has many advantages over time domain. There is also an integrated HSPICE available for it (but I don't use that). They offer a new addon oriented to signal integrity. I'm not just focused on signal integrity--I do the whole design job, from plain circuits, to PLLs, to PCB layout, including signal integrity because that's a necessary part. MWO brings all this together. You can download an evaluation of it and see for yourself (www.mwoffice.com). Regards, Chuck -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Bi Han Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 3:32 AM To: Andrew.Burnside@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; List` Si Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: ADS usage in SI analysis Andrew: I am curious about its application on thick dielectric layer. For example, in BGA package, the bump is about 90um high and the filling material is as thick as 90um. Does ADS generate accurate results for this kind of setup? thanks, Han Andrew Burnside <Andrew.Burnside@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Having used ADS momentum quite a bit for board SI/microwave design, I wouldn't necessarily agree that it is the best program for package SI. Yes, you can create packages by adding multiple layers, but the user interface is in essence 2D, with some limited 3D features. The momentum solver, as the name suggests uses the Method of Moments. This is not as accurate as 3D solvers such as HFSS. In addition, the Momentum RF mode can give you Quasi-static calculations, slighly less accurate but a lot faster run times. The accuracy all depends on what kind of shapes you are trying to simulate. Regards Andrew -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Chris Cheng Sent: Sat 20/08/2005 07:57 To: List` Si Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: ADS usage in SI analysis It's no secret I am a big fan of ADS. I believe it is the closest complete package for highspeed SI design one can wish. That said, if you are strictly using ADS momentum as a package SI analysis and nothing else, it may be more cost effective to use a free tool such as FastHenry/FastCap or more specialized tool like Sigrity. I think momentum is more like a simplified subset of HFSS that tries to address a lot of common field solving models I encounter. However, I seem to be able to break it in every turn I make. The via model simply doesn't work. I've found the problem since last year and Agilent is well aware of that. Will that stop me from using or recommending ADS ? Absolutely not. Because it is never meant to be a specialized tool for package SI analysis only. It's tight integration of a SPICE engine to S-parameter models together with schematics frontend and the limited but sufficient momentum field solver is all I need for highspeed SI design. The ptolemy extension is more useful for me than those xxxxAMS. That's my own experience, YMMV. May be share with us what kind of package SI analysis you really want to do ? Core power distribution ? SSO models ? Speed limit @ DDR Gb serdes ? Different strokes for different folks. ________________________________ From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Bi Han Sent: Fri 8/19/2005 9:21 PM To: List` Si Subject: [SI-LIST] ADS usage in SI analysis HI, folks: I am interested to know that how many companies are using ADS momentum solver as major tool in package SI analysis. Any one is willing to share me your feeling on this tool's accuracy and speed? thanks, Han --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu