[SI-LIST] Re: ADS usage in SI analysis
- From: "Charles Hill" <chuck@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <mike_bihan@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, <Andrew.Burnside@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "List` Si" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:55:10 -0600
Han,
I use (for years now) MWOffice. The user interface is very easy to pickup
and the support is excellent. It does have a 2.5D field solver (2D layered
structures) and a 3D solver. It has linking mechanisms to a true 3D solver
(like Sonnet). For problems in the GHz range, the harmonic balance
simulator has many advantages over time domain. There is also an integrated
HSPICE available for it (but I don't use that). They offer a new addon
oriented to signal integrity. I'm not just focused on signal integrity--I
do the whole design job, from plain circuits, to PLLs, to PCB layout,
including signal integrity because that's a necessary part. MWO brings all
this together.
You can download an evaluation of it and see for yourself
(www.mwoffice.com).
Regards,
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Bi Han
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 3:32 AM
To: Andrew.Burnside@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx; List`
Si
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: ADS usage in SI analysis
Andrew:
I am curious about its application on thick dielectric layer.
For example, in BGA package, the bump is about 90um high and the filling
material is as thick as 90um. Does ADS generate accurate results for this
kind of setup?
thanks,
Han
Andrew Burnside <Andrew.Burnside@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Having used ADS momentum quite a bit for board SI/microwave design, I
wouldn't necessarily agree that it is the best program for package SI. Yes,
you can create packages by adding multiple layers, but the user interface is
in essence 2D, with some limited 3D features.
The momentum solver, as the name suggests uses the Method of Moments. This
is not as accurate as 3D solvers such as HFSS. In addition, the Momentum RF
mode can give you Quasi-static calculations, slighly less accurate but a lot
faster run times. The accuracy all depends on what kind of shapes you are
trying to simulate.
Regards
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Chris Cheng
Sent: Sat 20/08/2005 07:57
To: List` Si
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: ADS usage in SI analysis
It's no secret I am a big fan of ADS.
I believe it is the closest complete package for highspeed SI design one can
wish.
That said, if you are strictly using ADS momentum as a package SI analysis
and nothing else, it may be more cost effective to use a free tool such as
FastHenry/FastCap or more specialized tool like Sigrity. I think momentum is
more like a simplified subset of HFSS that tries to address a lot of common
field solving models I encounter. However, I seem to be able to break it in
every turn I make. The via model simply doesn't work. I've found the problem
since last year and Agilent is well aware of that.
Will that stop me from using or recommending ADS ? Absolutely not. Because
it is never meant to be a specialized tool for package SI analysis only.
It's tight integration of a SPICE engine to S-parameter models together with
schematics frontend and the limited but sufficient momentum field solver is
all I need for highspeed SI design. The ptolemy extension is more useful for
me than those xxxxAMS.
That's my own experience, YMMV.
May be share with us what kind of package SI analysis you really want to do
? Core power distribution ? SSO models ? Speed limit @ DDR Gb serdes ?
Different strokes for different folks.
________________________________
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Bi Han
Sent: Fri 8/19/2005 9:21 PM
To: List` Si
Subject: [SI-LIST] ADS usage in SI analysis
HI, folks:
I am interested to know that how many companies are using ADS momentum
solver as major tool in package SI analysis.
Any one is willing to share me your feeling on this tool's accuracy and
speed?
thanks,
Han
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