Well Terry, I show at more all breeds then I do specialties and I don't agree with you. I think a good dog should and can win in both rings. I would rather win at a specialty and many of the dogs that I see at specialties winning could win at the all breeds, but the owners don't want to take a chance of getting beat by really bad dogs. Happens all the time. Yes, there are some really good all breed judges and usually after talking to them, I found that they either started in GSD or they observed a ton of specialties before applying for German Shepherds. Many of the all arounder all breed handlers finish dogs that couldn't win a class at a specialty, let alone points. So if you have a moderate all breed dog, show them at a specialty under some good judges and then you will really know if they cut the mustard or not. Most of the time they won't. Ann www.geocities.com/edangsd Terry Cochran <fairway97045@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:I think the biggest difference between the All Breed Ring and the Specialty ring is the owners of the dogs Specialty folks consider Moderate to mean Mediocre All Breed folks consider Moderate to mean the Standard Plain and simple it is the way we each understand the breed standard as written. Terry Steve Grainger wrote: .The other day I stated I felt that the specialty GSD was very difficult to breed correctly. Someone asked me privately why I felt that way..the(unscientific) explantion(cliff notes version) was that we have movement that is very unique to this breed.yet we also have a desired type and temperament .many of.desirable traits in this breed are comprised predominately of recessive traits. if you look at the original prototype of this breed from years ago...the things that were acceptable..we don't find acceptable today. Therefore..if you don't dilligently cultivate these desirable traits.you will loose them..or they will be difficult to regain. ..I feel most all-breed style dogs represent more of the "norm"..or moderate to even less than moderate dog. The moderate dog can be produced even when the sire and dam are specialty type dogs..on the flip side..two dogs moderate in movement and structure bred together will not as often produce specialty style dogs..it can happen( because of dogs that may factor in from the 3rd and 4th generations).this is why when you are trying to make a moderate dog look like a specialty producer...you carefully select bitches that are to the extreme of the specialty style..plus have good producing animals behind them to override the tendency for moderation. to me..this why breeding the GSD is a balancing act..and a difficult one at that to master.C.Grainger > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Cc: > Date: 4/15/2005 8:59:43 AM > Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: was small National entry? / two "types" > > I think Christine is absolutely accurate in her approach to evaluating the > GSD.All of the points she brings up are essential to a good show dog My > feeling is that a good dog should have correct type, and this is often demonstrated > in the AB ring. I think a Sociality dog just needs a little more movement to > make him/her ( in these days of required political correctness) a specialty > dog. In the past we have seen many AB dogs with not so hot toplines and only > adequate side movement. > Hopefully those days are gone forever ,. > I find this totally ironic that I am "preaching type " to the shepherd line > and at the same time fighting like hell with the Pembroke Welsh Corgi people > about their firm stand that TYPE is of the utmost importance. One very > successful Corgi breeder has put in writing that he puts 35 to 40% on the head > alone...That's NOT what the standard says, but he wins everything..Even when we put > the now retired dog, Fxlor Schafrhaus Sammy Sosa in the ring, and he is > considered the best moving corgi yet, the corgi fancy bred 58 bitches to an import > who can NOT move, nor does he produce movers, and Sammy was bred to 3 bitches in > the mean time????????? Sammy produced two litters of 5 champions each!!!!! > > > Chuck Kruger.... > > > ============================================================================ > POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. > > ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. > > For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx > > VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org > ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ Terry Cochran www.FairwayShepherds.com www.Rightdog.com RightDog Photography --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================