[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: - the other White decision
- From: "Carolyn Martello" <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx>, "'Stormy V. Hope'" <stormy435@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 11:32:05 -0700
Since the white Shepherd has been a DQ for many, many years....and has NEVER
been a 'desirable' part of the Standard for the German Shepherd Dog it seems
it has been the decision of those who continue breeding them to have to deal
with the problems that exist with that decision....just as it does with any
other DQ in any Breed Standard.
Why not let them "go" off into their own Breed and gain their own glory as a
very beautiful White breed of dog like others have? There are many white
breeders that DO prefer that...and many that breed according to the our AKC
Standard that DO prefer that. It's the best possible solution rather than
risk destroying our Parent Club over another 'war'....
AKC will work it out in the most fair way possible once we give them the
permission to separate. You KNOW AKC is not going to lose the revenue from
those that are already Registered!! They will have a method as they do for
any 'new' breed that originated from another. There are quite a few "white"
Breeds that we now know ..and are highly respected that came from separation
from another Breed Standard.
I really don't think this is comparable to two brown eyed people having a
blue eyed child?? Nor does it matter how the UKC handles their Standard.
( "pale, washed out colors" could be almost ANY interpretation in the
hands of many judges.....I don't see that as "pretty neat and simple" )
Personally I LOVE the GSD Standard and the Breed AS IT IS.
Those who prefer whites could tinker with their own Standard any way they
preferred as a specific respected Breed.
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.marhaven.com
Hello Stormy et all-
...........As it was in Europe for so many decades where white didn't exist in
the GSD, the white offspring
have no place in the GSD registry (and why it was the natural and easiest thing
for the Europeans
to do by creating a new breed for all the otherwise unregisterable whites in
existence)...
What would we then do with all those progeny? Kill them like what used to be
done?!? (Like I said before-- I'd rather like to figure that we are past
drowning/culling/however otherwise "getting rid"
of innocent and perfectly good puppies who just happen to be born with a white
coat... With the MOI
being a simple recessive, just like 2 brown-eyed people giving birth to a
blue-eyed offspring...
it doesn't seem enough to throw the baby out with the bath water-- especially
when we don't know
what rest we'd be throwing out!
So, if we were to be saying that the Whites were to be thrown out the GSD gene
pool, there would
still be that number of white pups born to coloured parents-- at least for the
first ??x??
[generations until the white was selected against enough the gene would be lost
from the GSD breed....
The question you present, "and worried that there might be pups born that have
no place to go :-(
" is a very real, pressing and HUGE concern to most every single breeder of
whites (whether bred as
GSDs or WSs): a problem that could be eliminated easiest here in NA by the
white coated dogs being granted full rights as a GSD just by removing the one
liner about the white DQ.
Though this is an AKC format show list, I should address the fact that in The
UKC, the GSD standard
reads like this:
COLOR
The German Shepherd Dog comes in many colors and white. In evaluating colored
dogs, strong, deep colors are preferred. Nose, lips, and eye rims must have
dark pigment, regardless of coat color. Color faults are minor in comparison to
defects of type and structure.
Serious Faults: Pale, washed-out colors; blue; liver.
Disqualification: albinism
Pretty neat & simple, allowing for correctly pigmented white coats to show
right alongside the coloured coats; which is frequently seen in the UKC GSD
ring. Both white and coloured GSDs have gone on to win Best in Show as well, so
the quality/ type is there and thriving.
It would be a logistical nightmare to remove the white coat from the AKC GSD
gene pool.... I mean, really how would it be done?!? Would the AKC really be
willing to go through ad pull out every white-coated GSD in the registry, to
change their papers from being a GSD to a WS automatically? (Who would foot
that bill to send all those thousands upon thousands of changed
registrations?!?) Or what, if not a comprehensive pull like that? Just
everyone with a white suddenly has no papers at all unless they went and
registered with FSS (or would the books be 'open' so as people came along
realising they had no GSD papers anymore and need new registration as a WS?)
No matter what, if the whites separated, from the GSD, there would then be
those future white coats born to coloured parents who will then be ineligible
for registration of any kind with AKC then? They would then not exist as the
GSD that both their parents are (now think about the reality of that and see if
it doesn't twist your mind... Because...) yet, because they would be born of 2
coloured GSDs & not two White Shepherds, they aren't eligible then to be WSs
even though they couldn't be told apart even by looks or genetics? (And GSD DNA
is the same as WS DNA except for whites always have 2 copies at the white
gene... ;-D )
Or will the only AKC registered white shepherds be those limited few already
UKC registered as WS- leaving the large majority of their white brethren (and
all that genetic material as well) behind to flounder with no registrations
anymore?
Who's going to foot the bill for separation if it were to happen? I just don't
see the AKC giving free to thousands what they charge everyone else $30 per
change, saying come get your new papers for free people...
The more I think about it; it surely would be an easier transition for the
white coat to be included in the GSD with full privileges than it would be
removed to non-existence in the GSD it seems, from logistical, financial, &
even genetic reasonings.
Sure would be nice to vote on it this year...
Jen P & the Pack
I know of a few white-factored Am/Can CHs or major-pointed dogs who are
currently alive. It is obvious by the quality of those examples being shown in
AKC/CKC the benefits of having the two types to work with in a breeding
program. An argument separatists use of breed type is that the GSD is so much
more angulated... Yet I found it rather interesting looking at breed standard
drawings as I make my references and have to giggle b/c an old argument for
separation was how much more angulated the coloured GSDs were... Looking at the
current standard drawings of "ideal", the new WS ideal appears to now be the
more angulated than the GSD.
The argument of type seems to be a moot point-- there is more divergence of
structure from the different Am/German show lines than there is from say white
shepherd-type to either.
JayDee's Proud-Haus Shepherds/ ProudK911
www.jaydeesphs.com
AKC Breeder of Merit
Home of the Total Dog you can be Proud of!!!
On 2 Aug 2013, at 22:14, "Stormy V. Hope" <stormy435@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Great post, obviously with a great deal of prior contemplation.
>
> I rarely get in on the white coated GSD discussion, but I had a question for
> Jen, so…
>
> In the option below, if the white coats are "kicked out of the breed," and
> the only place for them to go are to BBS/SWS, what happens to the GSD that
> are born with coats other than white? If White is a masking color, aren't
> there pups that are born with other color coats? Do white coats ALWAYS
> produce white? I'm asking, not knowing… and worried that there might be
> pups born that have no place to go :-(
>
> Stormy Hope
>
>
> On Aug 2, 2013, at 7:49 PM, Jen Proud <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Option B) kick the white coats out the breed. Not white is a DQ, but white
>> don't exist in the breed anymore and any born get registered as BBS/SWS
>> whatever, they go their own way, and only the BoB winner has to face up in
>> group.
>> This has been a smouldering issue for many many years. I find it to be
>> finally the time to act one way or the other... I understand the change for
>> performance awards made last year, but to keep ripping this issue into
>> thumbnail size chunks for the membership to swallow seems to be a waste of
>> time for everyone.
>
> Stormy V. Hope
> https://www.facebook.com/GSDCA.LegislationAwareness
> https://www.facebook.com/CaRPOC.CaliforniaResponsiblePetOwnersCoalition
>
>
>
>
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