I'm a bit late reading these emails, but I just responded to this a couple of minutes ago, saying "it's an unwritten rule. Helen has given a really good explanation...and yes, it is the handlers who know where the various breeds belong....... I had a Pointer being specialed in California in the early/mid 90s, and he was being shown by a friend, not by a professional handler. I was out there one weekend to see him shown, and when she went to the group, she was way back in the line. I have to tell you, this was a hell of a moving dog...and I went nuts...he wasn't going to be able to move stuck back there with the little guys. My friend told me the handlers wouldn't make room for her in front. (One of the top handlers had an Irish at the time...and he ws going to be first in line no matter what.) Well, the next day I took him to the group ring myself. And I took him to the front of the line. Of course, I was praying the whole time that my friend could get there before we had to move...I didn't feel like entertaining the world by dropping dead in the ring trying to run with a big moving dog......... no worries, she got there........ we got a group two that day........and after that time she took him to first or second in the lineup every time with no problems....the dog also placed in the group almost every time he was shown and stayed in the top 10 for over a year. He was even No. 1 Pointer for a short time.......... when I had him here in the East, nobody every tried to keep him from standing first in line, no matter who was showing him... we aren't quite as political as they are in California! Peggy VPREZHMF@xxxxxxx wrote: > >In a message dated 6/3/2007 2:56:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >grnram415@xxxxxxx writes: > >I have always wondered that too. I figured the order is by size and speed >of movement. But, when I look at the total orders of all the Groups, that >isn't really always so. Ok, the Peke always goes last, like the GSD always >goes first. But, who determined the order? Is it just an unwritten law? >What >happens when new Breeds come in. Is there a focus group that determines the >order? Such mysteries in the dog show world :-) > > > >Having judged Groups for 43 yrs,I'll try and answer that. Even when the GSD >was part of the Working Group,before the AKC divided it and created the >Herding group,the GSD was usually in front as a courtesy,since if he was >stuck in >the middle he was always being held up by the dog in front,so judges started >requesting the GSD go in front -otherwise the Group got screwed. When the >Group was divided,the custom continued. Then when "moving dogs" like the >Bearded > collies came into the group,they usually went behind the GSD,with the >Briards and the 3 Belgium dogs.,with short legged like the Corgis at the >end. As >new dogs entered the Herding Group they sort of arranged themselves according >to how their dog moved,since each Group handler wants to show off his dog to >the judge So if you had a fantastic Sheltie that moved fast >beautifully.,he'd be up there near the front .A lot of times I separate a >Group,,saying >"table dogs" at the end,whether Terrier,Sporting Hound, Toys are all table >dogs. >In Non Sporting A Chow is not going to try and get in front of a >Dalmation,and the Bulldog is always last. Professional handlers know their >business,and >go in the ring in the correct order for the judge,following common sense. Ii >isn't too often now,but at one time when the GSD Best of Breed would enter >with an inexperienced person to the Group,they would just walk in anywhere. I >would then have to ask the person to take his GSD up to the front.so my Group >would not get fouled up, gaiting around the full ring. That doesn't happen >anymore since GSD people have become more experienced. Hope this clarifies it >a bit for you Helen Miller Fisher > > > >************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > > >============================================================================ >POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original >author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind >are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the >Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. > >ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY >MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS >PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY >FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. 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