So are you saying we should give up, take our ball and go home? Give in to apathy?? We should forget about the "long timers" and just go on our merry way and forget the sport we are learning to love. I thought conformation was to judge our breeding stock? Why the heck aren't we mad as heck at those who are "handling" us by telling us who we can have as judges and that we must have handlers? If everyone knows who the creepy judges are, why continue to give them jobs? Why look to AKC to monitor our judges? Why allow certain people to control what type of dog can compete at a specialty? Why not say Stop? Why not say I will not enter under that judge, even though I won, because he was a lousy judge? ?Why not take off our blinders and see the dog for what it is? Whether that dog is ours or not? The standard alone should be our judge. I have been around this breed since 1995 and still consider myself a newbie, but you are wrong about "mentors" there are a?few people out there who w ill "mentor" you, but what I have seen more than not, is a dirty look and that is not my breeding so it is a pet, so it goes both ways and you should not overlook that. Or trivialize the newbie looking for answers. How did you learn? Like we are trying to? Asking questions? Reading books, going to shows? Talking to long timers? Going to someone and saying "I am looking for a mentor"? How? We have this list as an added resource, should we not use it? I have gone to a lot of shows and?only once did someone at?a show approach me first, I always went out of my way to be friendly and polite, sometimes with a friendly response, sometimes with a drop dead look to me. Now when I am at a show and I see someone standing alone looking kind of lost, I approach them and say hi. You should to. We all should and maybe then we won't need "our fathers dog world" we will have a human world that cares enough to give a s--t. And maybe attract more people. And I don't care if you are in GSD's or any breed, it applies to all. Maybe we should be people first and judges, exhibitors and breeders after that. And we should listen to all the anti dog, anti breeder stuff and do all we can, even if we are tired of hearing about it. You don't sound like you are grinding away, you sound like you have already walked away and given up. We can't afford for you to give up, we need the teachers, even when we don't want to hear it. I will learn because I want to, you are right, but you should teach because you can. Go ahead, blast away. Pam (or as I have been called polyanna) There are exceptions...but if you want a general overlook, there it is. Some of us keep grinding away, but it is a losing battle........and not just in this breed, not just on this List....throughout the dog world. Just the same way people look at anti-dog, anti-breeder legislation. "I already know that." And continue on doing the same old, same old. Talk about apathy?! I read that over and I think to myself "gee, you sound so bitter." I'm not. Not at all. If I have any friends on this earth, they are people I met through my involvement with dogs. I think that every good thing (and bad thing) that ever happened to me happened because I was involved in dogs. There is nothing that thrills me more than watching wonderful dogs...(they are few and far between, sadly)...but don't blame the List...........this is not "our father's dog world," and things are never going to be the way they were. If a person wants to learn, that person will find a way. I'm reminded again of Judges-L.........people come on there and say "I'm looking for a mentor in ........... such and such a breed." I can't help but think that if these people had spent some time around that breed, they'd have found a mentor already, without having to ask for one to find them. We used to not have to advertise that we wanted someone to teach us...we just went out and found our teachers. I'm sure that anyone who wants to learn will find someone, and then learn the way the long-timers learned. So long as everyone remembers that 20 years experience is better than one year's experience 20 times...if you want to learn, you will. Peggy ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 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