Thanks to Amy for a thoughtful reply, advise, and for making some wise observations...... Folks on the list, however long and expert they are as breeders, may not be able to make a valid diagnosis via *e-mail*..............especially when the situation is dire and may call for immediate medical attention. And knowing whether a situation is an "emergency" or not is also a judgment call. Obviously one dead pup and one failing pup calls for some rapid response. And Donna responded. She reached out to this List and its' breeders as a resource for information and help. (Maybe she didn't have a "breeder friend" nearby to call). So asking the List really was one of the *right things* she could do in the circumstance which confronted her. But even if the folks responding to her search for help are correct, we are still not able to actually *see* the pups, which may or may not call the comments we might make into question.......... We are, after all, not veterinarians, and are not licensed to practice veterinarian medicine, nor do we usually have the diagnostic equipment sometimes necessary to be accurate in *some* cases. We can only *suggest* a list of possibilities. We *can*, based on experience, only offer what we would do and then share with others what action we have taken when confronted with similar challenges. The breeders/fanciers on this wonderful list has and does offer a vast combined collection of knowledge and information which they are ready and eager to share with one another. We are willing, and certainly *are* trying to assist one another especially without being hurtful. The discussion as regards Albon as a possible remedy for pano would be a case in point. The information shared on this matter has been very helpful, but it is, at best, confined to personal experience and is possibly anecdotal in nature. Even vets have varying opinions about it. (I, for one, have had a good experience in using Albon for pano. But I have no documented scientific proof that the drug Albon works better or worse than Meta-Cam, for instance, as a solution.) Here is one suggestion for the future before whelping a litter: Buy and read: Successful Dog Breeding, The Complete Handbook of Canine Midwifery. Authors: Chris Walkowicz and Bonnie Wilcox DVM Here is a second suggestion: Make friends with an old timer breeder you can call via phone any time of day or night. So then, what to do when one of your puppies dies.......and another is failing? Not much time to ponder then. Most of us pray...........and act at the same time. I hope Donna will keep on asking the folks on this list for information and help. That help can be, and often is, invaluable. It really was *one* of the very *right things* she could do. But e-mail has its limitations. Those limitations are some of the reasons we all include symbols and smiley faces in our emails. It is so easy to misunderstand one another when using the computer to convey our intent and emotions. The catechism I studied so long ago reminds us that we are called upon to "put the best construction on things" when responding to and making observations about our family, friends and neighbors. So kudos to both Amy and Donna......... To Donna for asking and Amy for answering wisely. Let's all keep on keeping on........ And remember what Winston Churchill once remarked: "Never,never,never,never give up." Jane Kerner ----- Original Message ----- From: almanya@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: vhvgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 7:18 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: puppy death I am really sorry for your loss and glad your other pup is okay. I think you have to take it for what it's worth but when you have a diverse group of people with varying opinions you are bound to get any number or responses and then one thing leads to another unintentionally. I don't think anyone is wrong for posting their opinions and feelings. My best suggestion on what you thought was a dire situation in the future is to go to the vet right away then come back and ask the list for help. This is not a criticism, but my earnest best suggestion on a death of a puppy and the feeling the other one may be headed that way. I hope you understand and will realize i don't think anyone meant to hurt you. And we all care immensely for dying and sick pups. After all we have all been in your shoes a time or two and it is heartbreaking and I know you have all our sympathy on that..........Amy Amy Safdir Almanya Shepherds www.almanyagsd.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred & Donna Velten" <vhvgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 7:18 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] puppy death > the pup that died had a valve problem in the heart, the other pup was > simply low blood sugar, thank god and has been fine ever since. i know > some will say you need to have thicker skin, but when i posted the > original message, i was out of my mine with sorrow, and questions. i came > to this list for help not to be criticized. no i am not a vet, but i am a > good breeder with years of experience, but i do not claim to know > everything. some members were really compassionate and caring, others > became defensive of thier beliefs. next time someone asks for help, i hope > these people read the post and do not over react. i apologize for asking > for help and i will never do it again......................donna > Fred & Donna Velten > Vom Haus Velten German Shepherds > WHERE QUALITY COMES FIRST > www.veltengsd.com > > ============================================================================ > POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the > original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or > FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the > original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. > > ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY > MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS > PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY > FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL > BE PROSECUTED. > > For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx > > VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org > ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================