[ SHOWGSD-L ] individual variation

From: Katie Halfen <kthalfen@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: gsd list <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:48:58 -0400
Katie: "What I was trying to say is that the entire litter will be exposed
> and affected by whatever drug is given. Yes there are degrees of
> what that effect is and unless we did a necropsy on each of the pups
> to determine if the living pups had any lasting effects, we don't
> know the degree they are affected." 
 
Donna: "Thank you for the clarification--that's very different from the way I 
read what you said originally--but I still disagree. In addition to 
individual variation among the littermates, which is important in all 
cases, there can be other situations in play. Here are a couple 
examples. If you are very close to the threshold dose of a substance 
with a steep dose-response curve, some could be unaffected, some could 
be transiently affected and fully recover, and/or some could be 
catastrophically affected (death or malformation). Some toxins affect 
affect one sex exclusively or affect the sexes differentially--in the 
latter case you could also see just one sex affected, depending on dose.
 
We are going to have to agree to disagree."
 
I actually think we do agree on this.  I had originally been discussing 
antibiotics and although I didn't state it (I should have) when I said 
"whatever drug" I was referring to antibiotics.  I wasn't try to make this an 
all inclusive conversation.  We had been discussing the use of antibiotics in 
pregnant bitches and what the effects may be on the developing fetuses.  I know 
I did used one non-antibiotic example with the ethylene glycol, but that was 
only to show toxicity in certain species when pregnant.  I tried to stick to 
antibiotic examples and I probably should have omitted the ethylene glycol 
comment.  I agree there are plenty of drugs, plants, environmental toxins, 
chemicals, etc. that do have a dose dependent threshold before an affect is 
seen or not seen, and also can only affect one sex, as you stated.  Most 
antibiotics are given based on a mean inhibitory concentration to work against 
a given bacteria and although dose dependent, I don't know any antibiotics  
that are sex dependent, please enlighten me if anyone knows of an antibiotic 
that afffects males or females differently based on the dosages.
 
I think the disagreement arrived when talking about apples vs. oranges instead 
of comparing apples to apples.


Katie Halfen DVM
Casamoko Shepherds
www.casamoko.com



                                          
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[ SHOWGSD-L ] individual variation

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