from what I have seen the dogs that are shock collar trained (the smarter dogs and most shepherds anyway!) they learn pretty fast that it is the collar and the minute you take it off the training goes out the window! I have used the hotwire with great success personally Maggie Marshall Aeval German Shepherds http://hometown.aol.com/gsdlady28/index.html Website Updated 03/21/2007 From: "Kerri Bojahra" <romance_german_shepherds@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Fence climbers, poop, vets, rescue dogs & Bad neighb Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:16:18 -0400 my dad had a fence jumper once. he used negative reinforcement training on him with an E collar. took 3 days to put an end to it. kerri ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================