[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: fading pups
- From: Crystaridge <crystaridge@xxxxxxx>
- To: Elsyd1@xxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 12:30:59 -0700
That was great Syd ----- I hope everyone that ever has had or ever plans to
have pups, prints this out and keeps
it. You are fortunate to have this vet ----- there are just too many out
there that don't know anything about breeding,
whelping, and what can happen with 'nervous' bitches.
Cheers, Sylvia
----- Original Message -----
From: <Elsyd1@xxxxxxx>
To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:31 AM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: fading pups
>
>
> HI, this is what I got from my vet after describing the symptoms of these
> puppies and their mother...Syd
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> The â?otoxic milkâ?? diagnosis makes little sense, but putting the litter
on
> antibiotics to cover a possible bacterial problem seems justifiable. It
is
> certainly true that the lochia discharge is going to be full of bacteria
and that
> this is generally not a problem. I have seen puppies consume lochia and
> consume overtly mastitic milk with no problems whatsoever. So long as the
bitch
> is not overtly ill, it seems unlikely that any of these secretions
contain
> problematic bacteria. Nevertheless, antibiotic prophylaxis is prudent in
this
> case.
> The most likely source of the problem is the bitchâ?Ts behavior. She is
> probably not taking good care of the pups. In this situation it is likely
that some
> of the pups are not being well fed. (Was milk present in the necropsy?)
> Nervous mothers can vacillate from being too neglectful to overly
attentive to
> vicious toward their babies. Sometimes the puppy is simply smothered out
of
> clumsiness or over-mothering. Detecting this on a gross necropsy can be
> difficult if the practitioner is not skilled and thorough. Even in this
day of CSI,
> we cannot always recognize the cause of death.
> I once had a client bring me 4 GSD puppies over 5 days, each of which was
> found dead mysteriously with everyone else perfectly normal. I dutifully
> necropsied each pup and because the gross pathology varied from pup to
pup, my
> diagnosis was trauma inflicted by the mother. The client refused to
believe the
> bitch was murdering her babies since she seemed so â?omotherlyâ?? until
he found
> only half of one puppy in the whelping area. At that point he removed the
> remaining puppies and hand raised them successfully.
> Even if the pups are being well supplemented now, they may not have
received
> adequate colostrum during their first feedings on mom. It is possible to
> detect this low colostrum situation by checking a blood sample on one or
more
> puppies. It is not necessary to do an actual antibody measurement; one
can
> infer the level is adequate if their total serum protein level is normal.
Testing
> for serum protein is cheap and easily measured in house. If they did not
get
> adequate colostrum, corrective action can be taken.
> The best one can do with newborn puppies is to make sure they are warm,
well
> fed, and protected from injury. Hopefully the two puppies lost from this
> group will be the end of the problem. If another dies, a thorough
necropsy
> should be performed with tissue samples taken from every major organ for
> histology. Examining the tissues at a microscopic level is the best
chance of reaching
> a diagnosis.
> Keith D. Norton, DVM
>
>
> ____________________________________
>
>
>
> In a message dated 5/21/2005 8:39:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> chcohosh@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
>
> It's me again (and thank you to all who replied on the fear issue - have
> shared the suggestions and comments with the mother).
>
>
> I have a dilemma that I hope some of you folks may shed some light on.
Three
> days ago I announced the birth of a litter of 12 . I have since lost
two -
> an autopsy today in his office showed normal organs and no sign of any
> disease. I have been supplementing as the dam does not have much milk and
is
> very nervous about all these pups.
>
>
>
> Here is the problem - the vet here in VA (small town) says she has "toxic
> milk syndrome". He cultured vaginal discharge and said it was full of
> bacteria and puss. I felt that the discharge look normal to my other
bitch's
> postpartum. It was pink tinged and milky white without order. This in
turn
> led him to the toxic milk diagnosis. She was x-rayed after delivery and
> there was nothing left in the uterus. He gave a shot of penicillin at
that
> time "to ward off any problems". Now he has said to take her off the
pup -
> has given antibiotics for both her and the pups.
>
>
>
> My vet from PA (who I called for a second opinion) said that he didn't
think
> that an office autopsy could diagnosis many causes of death in a pup and
> advised to send the pup to a clinic/vet school for definitive workup. He
> also was not aware of "toxic milk", said all postpartum bitches had
bacteria
> in the discharge and it could not hurt the pups. He didn't feel the
> antibiotics would hurt and said to go ahead of use them. He advises to
put
> the bitch back with the pups.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The bitch does seem nervous and overwhelmed by all the pups and I know
this
> can cause a milk problem.
>
>
>
> Any one with any words of wisdom out there who has had this problem or
knows
> about it??
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help you might have to give.
>
>
>
> Threese - Limited Edition Shepherds (VA)
>
> http://members.aol.com/gsdgodiva/LTDGS.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> SYD MAILBERG 425-432-4144 NEW FRIESIAN PAINTING ON WEBSITE
> 23910 SE 276TH ST MAPLE VALLEY, WA 98038
> _http://www.kingswoodgermanshepherds.homestead.com_
> (http://kingswoodgermanshepherds.homestead.com/)
>
>
>
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> POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the
original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS
of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author
AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
>
> ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
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>
> For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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>
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============================================================================
POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org
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