In a message dated 10/30/2006 10:58:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ccceditor@xxxxxxxxx writes: If you scroll over to the next page from the one Kathy references, the non-regular classes are Veteran dog and Bitch, age divided. No Best Puppy class. ************************************************************* Right. The non regular classes start on page 3 (include BP and BOP)and continue onto page 4. Look closely at the bottom of page three and you'll see the heading for Veterans. (I might have put it at the top of page 4, because it would have been easier to read, but no matter). Veterans classes are listed as non-regular classes involving single dog entries. When veterans classes are listed this way, the winners go back for BOB. (That's the distinction). ************************************************************* You might want to read the instructions for Special attractions which would have been completed for the National I am sure. They are interesting regarding judging of special events such as Best Puppy and Best Bred-by and Veterans as a special attraction. http://www.akc.org/pdfs/masterform.cfm Scroll down to conformation events and then to special attractions form. ****************************************************** Right. I've used these forms for Parade of Title Holders and Rescue parades for my own regional club, so I'm very familiar. Here's the link to the actual form. Note that per the directions to complete the form, Best Puppy and Veterans DO NOT NEED need approval on the Special Attractions Form. (Third paragraph). It's printed in bold and they've even underlined a section of it. _http://www.akc.org/pdfs/mespl2.pdf_ (http://www.akc.org/pdfs/mespl2.pdf) On the second page of the form they list examples of Special Attractions. These would be our Parade of greats, Stud Dog classes etc. as well as the ones I've listed above. ************************************************************* And anyway if I am following the undefeated logic to its conclusion, any dog that does not go Best of Breed is defeated on the day and nobody should be eligible for Best anything class, Puppy, 12-18, Bred By or any other regular class. ************************************************************* Bred By, having a single class in each sex is an easy one. IF a dog/bitch goes BOB, it is automatically Best Bred By. Anything else and it would go back to compete with the dog/bitch of the opposite sex for Best Bred By. The (Best) class is limited, so the dogs can progress to a non-regular competition. You'll note, getting back to the Special Attractions form, paragraph 3, also in bold, Best bred By is also NOT something you'd use the Special Attractions form for. A puppy that hasn't been defeated by the other in its own sex (since there are 2; 6-9 and 9-12) by the other puppy in the same sex going Reserve or Winners is eligible to compete for best puppy because it has not been placed against the other eligible puppy of that sex and the competition is limited to puppies only. (This limitation is why the puppies can still compete, even though they have been defeated in winners; unless one goes Reserve or Winners, we really don't know how they ranked against each other.) Looked at a different way, say a male puppy goes WD. He has defeated the other male, so that other male is out. You would have 3 puppies in BP competition, the two girls and the WD. One of the girls could go BP because this is the first time the boys and girls are all competing together. If the same male puppy were to go BOB, you'd still have 3 puppies back in for BP, BUT, the best a girl could do is BOP. But take a look at the AKC's Special Attractions Form Barb. Third paragraph, bold print. Best Puppy, Veterans, Best Bred By don't go on there. Kathy member GSDCA, DVGSDC three generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions live here! visit _Pine Hill German Shepherd Dogs_ (http://www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds/) ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues ============================================================================