In a message dated 11/17/2004 8:24:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, utter227@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: > So if a gsd is to stand and allow any of these different types of > strangers come and pat him or whatever they want to do, I'd say you are > dealing with a trained response and not a natural instinctive > temperament. And what good is that? What good is that? I'll tell you what good it is; Much of what we ask our dogs to do on a daily basis isn't "natural", but a trained response. It's how they fit into our routines. Showing dogs isn't "natural" to them, but they do it and (for the lucky ones) we sometimes make it fun for them. Having a stranger run their hands over a puppy while it stands still, then look in their mouths and for the boys, fondle their privates isn't "natural", but they learn to tolerate it. By the same token, training your dog, "proofing" it, if you will to however some judge is going to interpret our TE isn't "natural" either; but if you are going to take the trouble to show your dog, I'd think you would like to win, and why take a chance that an untrained dog would leave a bad impression on an uninformed judge? Worse, if you don't train (prepare) them and they have a bad experience at the hands of an uniformed judge you really have your work cut out for you! (Most of) our dogs are smart enough to discriminate between a judge doing something weird in the middle of the ring and a real threat to us or our property. You don't take that out of them by training a certain response for the show ring, whatever venue you want to play in. JMHO Now, I think today after work I will put the Christmas trees up. I will teach the 5 month old boys that, although it may be "natural" to want to pee on the trees, it's NOT allowed! Kathy visit Pine Hill German Shepherd Dogs ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2004. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================