Thank You Pam, this is the most candid post I have ever read on this list. I loved it. It is so good to see people like Pam, taking the time to learn what it is that makes a dog. I wish more people had access to classes and teachers like the one she has. You may not realize it now, but that is an advantage many people don't have. I think you are on the right path. As far as critiquing your dog, let me share my experience with you. I was told to go about it this way: Ask people whose dogs you like, and then ask a couple of people whose dogs you don't care for as much. Then ask someone else. You may get 3 different opinions. NOW: compare their evaluations of your dogs with your own. See if you agree, if you missed something, if they missed something. Ultimately, it is your decision to make, but make an educated one. On the grooming part, please don't discount a GSD as only a wash and wear dog. The teeth cleaning, for example, it is not only a grooming issue, it is also a healthy issue. The bacteria that accumulates in their teeth and gum is harmful to their organs. Do you have to bathe them weekly? No, you could, but you don't have to. To me that's an issue of preference. But I agree with you, no enhancements are needed. They are always left out of the gene pool....<G> If you want to talk more, email me privately. I love to talk dogs. Take care and good luck. Ileana ****************************************************************************** ************** I wish I had a mentor. I have not had the privilege of having someone critique my dogs or my breeding program. My learning curve has been very slow, dog by dog, show by show. I started out seriously showing looking at color. I could not understand why the dog with the prettiest color did not win. A handler standing ringside said, "I never see color, I see structure," and I didn't know what she was talking about so I started by asking my all-breed handler what was meant. My handler invited me to attend her conformation classes. She gave real classes with lectures as well as ring training and critiquing. We went to her home where she showed us Page Elliot's "Dog Steps." I bought that video and have studied it trying to see what it was that made the difference in the movement of the dogs. I watched the herding group at ringside but when it came time for the GSDs I simply went into high stress level because one of my dogs would be competing. (Not a good time to learn anything.) But slowly I came to see the difference in movement on the going round and the down and back (much easier to see). I found I was paying less attention to color and more attention to the stack to give me an idea of the structure the judge would be feeling. I began to notice the difference between a low stationed dog (my preference) and ones I thought of as "leggy," with more air under their chests. I am beginning to see reach and drive and that dogs that have both. I still cannot see shoulder conformation differences, nor the "open up" on the go round. I can see a smooth easy trot but I cannot see a "flying trot" but that is probably because we only have one specialty a year compared to numerous all breed shows where the rings are small. I am still watching at ring side and hoping to understand what it is that makes my dogs lose, when they lose and why they won when they won. An example of how I learn. I was recently competing with my specials bitch under a judge that had not put her up when he had seen her before. I did not know why and did not ask. There was a male puppy who looked IMO like a Malamute GSD cross he was so big boned and had so much hair. He was misbehaved in the ring and was obviously hard to control. But boy when he finally settled down he moved beautifully. The judge gave him the breed. I now know, that for this judge, movement is everything. Nothing else counts. The next time I will bring him a Springer Spaniel. LOL I am able to see that there is a subtle difference between that puppy's movement and my bitch's but I have no idea what it was or how the dog was constructed that created that movement. I would like to be able to breed a dog with that kind of movement without sacrificing everything else. I still want a dog that looks like a working/herding dog-one that is clean, well balanced, well boned but not overdone, good musculature, with a nice head and ear set (though this doesn't change the movement at all) and a great temperament. And then, if we could throw in a grey sable coat to go along with it I would die happy -- but it is not a requirement. Since I want an opinion of my dog - as is - I do not dye my dogs or use spray to shine their coats. I do not go to the vet to have their teeth cleaned. For me, the GSD is a wash and wear dog and should be presented without all those enhancements. JMO I am still willing to hear an honest critique of my dog. I want to improve my breeding program, given my end goals. Pam Brink ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues ============================================================================