[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: We have answers, but not from me maybe
- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
- To: proudk9@xxxxxxxxx, carolynmckenna@xxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 16:26:54 -0400 (EDT)
So Jen...just took a look at your site...mostly whites? Saw a VERY light
sable (Hollie) and a black and... mostly cream (Naomi)???? And a black w/ a
mostly white chest (Missy?).
Do the black and tans fade like that because of the white? Or does that
have something to do with when a white has what you all call "biscuit"?
You know...never mind. I'm not breeding whites so it doesn't matter. It's
all too complicated for me.
I do test to see who might carry the black or coat factor. I prefer not to
have too many long coats in a litter, reduces my choices of who to hold
back.
I'll stick with rich pigment...it pleases me and I don't have to keep all
of this straight <G>.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit http://www.pinehillgsds.com/
In a message dated 9/15/2013 3:46:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
proudk9@xxxxxxxxx writes:
On Sep 15, 2013, at 12:33, carolyn mckenna <carolynmckenna@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> That's all well and good, Jeff,
Since this is in reply to my email- it's JEN. I've been called interesting
things, but never by a man's name...
> but most of us don't care about all that stuff. We breed to
> the dictates of the standard, which asks for strong rich colors, not
faded or washed-out.
I am very surprised to think that most breeders on this list
wouldn't/don't care about the stuff involved in the coat genetics of our
breed. Having
an understanding of them helps to breed those richer phaeomelanin colors.
Many people seem to like dogs heavy on the eumelanin as well. Why wouldn't
one want to increase the odds of getting what they want from their breedings?
> Except for those who want an all black dog or a sable simply due to
personal preference,
> color does not matter. Nor does our standard list a preferred color.
Personal preference dictates why we even have this breed in the first
place, does it not? If there weren't a preferred pattern&colors in the breed
ring, our AKC registrations for color/pattern would appear much differently
for starters. We would have more of a balance of patterns in the breed
ring if color/pattern didn't matter. We wouldn't have dogs advertised in the
Review as being "black free" or as a "black carrier" or "long coat free" if
the general appearance of our breed's coat weren't important to some at
least.
> I will say that some
> have brought blacks to an incredible position, so many gorgeous correct
ones today.
> Also, don't know what all this talk about bi colors is.
A bicolor is 3rd in the order of dominance on the agouti series. It is
also called "tan point". So, no a black & white Sheltie nor a Dalmatian would
qualify. However, a tri-color Sheltie (black with tan and white) is
genetically the same as a bicolor GSD with the addition of the Irish Spotting
gene
(I think- one of those white pointing genes anyhow). Also, think
Rottweiler, Gordon Setter, Dobermann.
> A bi is simply a black and tan of
> two colors, no third color, not even shadings. A Dalmation is a bi
color as is a black
> Sheltie with a white collar.
While I see your point about calling any 2 colored dog a bicolor in its
literal definition, again, bicolor when referred to on the agouti gene, it is
as a tan (or red or cream, as determined by the Int series) point; which
if I knew how to do superscript here on my iPhone, it is a>t when written in
the series.
Sable/wild type=a>w
Saddle=a>s
Bicolor=a>t
Solid=a
But don't all of us know this stuff I thought.
> My male appeared to be a bi when he was young, but
> a sprinkling of mahogany (some might call it red ) hairs appeared at the
base of this ears.
My pups few head hairs are the same rich tan as her legs, but bicolors
don't typically have hair scattered like that. Cleaner margins and the
head/facial phaeomelanin is restricted to the eyebrows/cheeks/ear inners.
> not the same color as his legs, so not a bi. Who cares; he is the rich,
strong color the standard
> dictates. Though I personally like the black and tans whose tan has
shadings, I certainly
> will mot throw out the bi colors or the blacks for their color.
A good GSD is a good GSD regardless if they're in the popular pattern or
not. I have never been a fan of sables myself, but a couple of my favorites
from recent years have been sables! I can't pass on a beautifully
structured dog just because I like "x" pattern better :)
JP&P
> Carolyn
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jen Proud <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "<carolynmckenna@xxxxxxxxx>" <carolynmckenna@xxxxxxxxx>;
"<gsdworkingline@xxxxxxxxx>" <gsdworkingline@xxxxxxxxx>;
"<bnbgsds2000@xxxxxxxxx>"
<bnbgsds2000@xxxxxxxxx>; "<Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>"
<Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "<ELG440@xxxxxxx>" <ELG440@xxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 2:23 PM
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: We have answers, but not from me maybe
>
>
> I'm sorry but I must say I don't 100% agree with ya Penny though I often
do share your opinions across the topics!
> While I do agree that breeding just for blacks doing black to black or
black carrier breedings, the black does get better with each successive
generation and often loses any "bleed-through" unless it's stamped into the
line thoroughly or a paled black carrier parent is used.
> However, to improve/if i could only say "control"(!!) coat pigment, it's
3 separate modifiers beyond the expression of color or the epistatic gene
for white. First, there is a modifier related to the amount of black that
will appear on the mask/face, a second that will affect how black the mantle
(from the neck to the tail) is, and the third, what is called the
"Intensity" gene which controls the ground (non-black) color; it is commonly
believed (my humblest of opinions included) that the highest intensity=red is
also the most recessive. Though not all these genes will appear in all
patterns/colors (white included with black, bi & the rest!) due to, say a
black
dog, being solid colored the mask & mantle coverage doesn't show up, and
possibly the intensity genes may be expressed enough to tell the ground color
if the black dog has some "bleed-through". In a white, if they would
otherwise be a rich tan or red ground colored dog if they had a colored gene
> to express, you can of
> ten get an idea of how much mask/mantle they have, since for some
unknown reason, an otherwise black/red epistatically white dog will have
cream,tan,orange,biscuit,whatever one wants to call it(!!!)- but technically
phaeomelanin in the areas they would be black/eumelanin if they instead had a
gene or two to display their color instead of the white. How do the two
pigments flip flop places in richly colored white dogs? Pigment is considered
a completely separate thing than in colored GSDs- pigment in whites refers
to the pigment quality of the skin- how dark or black does the nose stay-
black lips, eye rims, paw pads, preferably any showing skin (places hair is
thin) such as ear inners, muzzle, testicles, belly etc being grey to black
is preferable, and the darker the more desirable. I must say that black
skin pigment looks rather interesting on a grey sable dog! ;). The whites
considered to have the best pigment are the ones black enough to have
> black pigmented toenails-
> like I mean solid black just as in our colored dogs. Many pups will have
grey stripes down the top center of their toenails, which is good, but
black toenails is about perfection, as the rest is generally pitch black
before the nails are affected like that.
> In all pattern models, a cream/tan ground colored dog can produce a red,
but 2 reds bred together generally don't produce anything lighter than
tan, if even anything other than reds. I personally think the intensity
series is polygenic and acts in a threshold manner. That would explain how a
cream/silver can produce rich tan/red in her colored puppies. It would also
explain how many black/tan to black/tan (just think color on the intensity
series and forget pattern for a moment. This applies to all, even the solids)
breedings produce litters with everything from black/red to black/silver
in color.
> For the mantle portion, I can't truly say how it is inherited. I would
like to say that more black is dominant, but I'm not sure on that one. I
know 2 dogs both with dark mantles bred together produce pups with all nice
large mantles. Even the lightest of the bunch still has a nice large saddle
connecting up his whole neck and down his entire tail with the extra black
for the ink-dipped tip! ;) though it doesn't extend down onto his belly/legs
as it does in his darker siblings. 2/3 of that litter was real dark both
mantle (both parents) and mask (daddy), 1/6 had a dark mantle and a middle
dark mask (more similar to mom & her siblings), 1/6 had a lighter mask than
both parents (being similar to daddy's daddy instead). Both parents were
black/tan saddles; but there were 2 red puppies and the other 4 were tan,
varying from a lighter golden tan to the darker brownish rich tan with red in
patches (like on head, hocks, and the like). That would suggest that
> in both the mask and th
> e mantle modifiers, darker is dominant.
> Again, the gene series controlling the mantle reaches across all
patterns, from the obvious in sables & saddles; to in bi-colors where
sometimes
they're so tan (or whatever) with a very small mantle they could be mistaken
for a very dark saddle, and sometimes they're so dark with a heavy mantle
that only the bottoms of their legs have any color on them... Both are
genetic bicolors, it's just that mantle-sizing gene/s at work. The latter
example of the bicolor dog could be mistaken for a genetic black who has small
mantle modifiers and ends up with a bunch of bleed-through, where the blacks
with a heavy mantle are the ones that start out black black and stay that
way. No white blotches, no tan in their toes. It seems the trick to knowing
the difference of if its a black or a bi is knowing the dog from a puppy(or
someone who does) since the bleed-through blacks will start out all black
and not grow color in until they shed out a time or three while a
> bicolor is an obvious bicol
> or next to a true solid black by the time they're ready to leave the
breeder at 8 or so weeks old.
> My wee pup at over 4 months now is still staying so nice & black (both
her mask & her mantle) she actually more favors a bicolor--well for now
anyhow. Too bad she's not indeed a bicolor- that's my favorite pattern! I
could about care less what the ground color is on a bicolor, but I can say it
is striking as well when their lower legs & eyebrows are dark tan or red...
I was on the fence with her pattern for registration but then I saw tan
hairs on her head here 'n there between her ears. Boo-hoo!!!
> I'm not quite as finicky on the intensity series results as I am in
wanting a dog with a dark dark mask and a large mantle regardless of their
pattern.
> With my favorite pattern being bicolor, I'd want one who is quite
mostly black/considered dark for a bicolor. I tried for one this litter as
daddy's a b/t dark saddle who's a bicolor carrier and mommy's a b/t who's a
solid black carrier. Of course there were 6 saddled puppies despite the odds
there should have been 2 who weren't saddles. Oh well at least odds &
statistics came out that there was 3 boys & 3 girls. The one time I wanted
most
all of one sex (girls) I got the perfectly balanced litter. Aaaah it worked
out just right anyhow; every puppy went to a wonderful home and all but 1
had previous GSDs and the one who didn't had a Rottweiler that died of cancer
at 11 so I figured they might manage one of my pups! I even think I got a
pretty nice puppy even if she's an extended saddle...
> Thanks for listening to my humble opinions on color genetics and one
more-- (had to learn myself since I like having black carrier dogs (if not
epistatically solid black in my whites) in my breeding program. It usually
guarantees more than one pattern in my litters. They're more interesting that
way I just happen to think coming in more than one pattern/look. It's
always an interesting result when a white is bred into a colored line where
he/she happens to be, if a gene for color were added, a solid black dog, and
better yet a coat carrier as well as having the genes for both white and for
solid black....: then the colored model gets test bred for everything
regarding coat type: what it's recessive carrier pattern is from any other
patterned pups than that parent displays them self; if it carries for long
coat, by having a coated pup or 2 start growing in after they're 2 weeks or so
along (I personally wouldn't want that white parent to be a long
> coat themselves-- then if t
> he colored parent was a carrier as well, theoretically, half the litter
would be long coats. Too much for me even though I do admire them.), and is
also tested for any white carrier status. Really fun is when there's 3
different colors/patterns in the litter: white, and whatever the
non-genetically-black parent has at their agouti alleles.
> Sorry so long!!
>
> Jen P & the Pack who also has a good idea about the AKC registration
process regarding color & pattern. We should identify the dogs in our breed
so much more accurately than we do! But that's another tangent... :-)
>
>
>
> JayDee's Proud-Haus Shepherds/Proud K911
> www.jaydeesphs.com
> Committed to the Total Dog you can be Proud of!!!
> AKC Breeder of Merit
>
> On Sep 14, 2013, at 12:04 PM, "Penny & Bill" <Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>
>> Personally I don't favor the red color. But breeding to a black will
always
>> enhance pigment. (Also a bi-color. Izzy is a bi and her pups are ALL
very
>> dark black and tans and sables.) When I bred blacks exclusively in the
80s,
>> it seemed that each generation got blacker and shinier. Some shone in
the
>> sun like patent leather.
>>
>> Penny in NC
>> The Farm Dog Forever.
>>
>> From: Sarah Minsk
>> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: We have answers, but not from me
>>
>>
>> But not red, huh.Hmm. One breeder told me when she wants to improve
pigment
>> (red color) she breeds to black dogs. So, now I am confused!!! Not the
first
>> time and won't be the last!
>>
>> How do dogs get so red then versus tan?
>>
>> I can only stay online for a little while as sunset and Yom Kippur is
>> approaching...so please don't be offended if I don't come online again
until
>> Sunday.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sarah
>
>
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is Copyrighted 2012. All material remains the property of the
original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of
any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of
the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group
and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions
expressed in any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
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POST is Copyrighted 2012. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
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Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
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