[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: We have answers, but not from me maybe
- From: Jen Proud <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:23:22 -0500
I'm sorry but I must say I don't 100% agree with ya Penny though I often do
share your opinions across the topics!
While I do agree that breeding just for blacks doing black to black or black
carrier breedings, the black does get better with each successive generation
and often loses any "bleed-through" unless it's stamped into the line
thoroughly or a paled black carrier parent is used.
However, to improve/if i could only say "control"(!!) coat pigment, it's 3
separate modifiers beyond the expression of color or the epistatic gene for
white. First, there is a modifier related to the amount of black that will
appear on the mask/face, a second that will affect how black the mantle (from
the neck to the tail) is, and the third, what is called the "Intensity" gene
which controls the ground (non-black) color; it is commonly believed (my
humblest of opinions included) that the highest intensity=red is also the most
recessive. Though not all these genes will appear in all patterns/colors
(white included with black, bi & the rest!) due to, say a black dog, being
solid colored the mask & mantle coverage doesn't show up, and possibly the
intensity genes may be expressed enough to tell the ground color if the black
dog has some "bleed-through". In a white, if they would otherwise be a rich tan
or red ground colored dog if they had a colored gene to express, you can often
get an idea of how much mask/mantle they have, since for some unknown reason,
an otherwise black/red epistatically white dog will have
cream,tan,orange,biscuit,whatever one wants to call it(!!!)- but technically
phaeomelanin in the areas they would be black/eumelanin if they instead had a
gene or two to display their color instead of the white. How do the two
pigments flip flop places in richly colored white dogs? Pigment is considered
a completely separate thing than in colored GSDs- pigment in whites refers to
the pigment quality of the skin- how dark or black does the nose stay- black
lips, eye rims, paw pads, preferably any showing skin (places hair is thin)
such as ear inners, muzzle, testicles, belly etc being grey to black is
preferable, and the darker the more desirable. I must say that black skin
pigment looks rather interesting on a grey sable dog! ;). The whites considered
to have the best pigment are the ones black enough to have black pigmented
toenails- like I mean solid black just as in our colored dogs. Many pups will
have grey stripes down the top center of their toenails, which is good, but
black toenails is about perfection, as the rest is generally pitch black before
the nails are affected like that.
In all pattern models, a cream/tan ground colored dog can produce a red, but 2
reds bred together generally don't produce anything lighter than tan, if even
anything other than reds. I personally think the intensity series is polygenic
and acts in a threshold manner. That would explain how a cream/silver can
produce rich tan/red in her colored puppies. It would also explain how many
black/tan to black/tan (just think color on the intensity series and forget
pattern for a moment. This applies to all, even the solids) breedings produce
litters with everything from black/red to black/silver in color.
For the mantle portion, I can't truly say how it is inherited. I would like to
say that more black is dominant, but I'm not sure on that one. I know 2 dogs
both with dark mantles bred together produce pups with all nice large mantles.
Even the lightest of the bunch still has a nice large saddle connecting up his
whole neck and down his entire tail with the extra black for the ink-dipped
tip! ;) though it doesn't extend down onto his belly/legs as it does in his
darker siblings. 2/3 of that litter was real dark both mantle (both parents)
and mask (daddy), 1/6 had a dark mantle and a middle dark mask (more similar to
mom & her siblings), 1/6 had a lighter mask than both parents (being similar to
daddy's daddy instead). Both parents were black/tan saddles; but there were 2
red puppies and the other 4 were tan, varying from a lighter golden tan to the
darker brownish rich tan with red in patches (like on head, hocks, and the
like). That would suggest that in both the mask and the mantle modifiers,
darker is dominant.
Again, the gene series controlling the mantle reaches across all patterns, from
the obvious in sables & saddles; to in bi-colors where sometimes they're so tan
(or whatever) with a very small mantle they could be mistaken for a very dark
saddle, and sometimes they're so dark with a heavy mantle that only the bottoms
of their legs have any color on them... Both are genetic bicolors, it's just
that mantle-sizing gene/s at work. The latter example of the bicolor dog could
be mistaken for a genetic black who has small mantle modifiers and ends up with
a bunch of bleed-through, where the blacks with a heavy mantle are the ones
that start out black black and stay that way. No white blotches, no tan in
their toes. It seems the trick to knowing the difference of if its a black or a
bi is knowing the dog from a puppy(or someone who does) since the bleed-through
blacks will start out all black and not grow color in until they shed out a
time or three while a bicolor is an obvious bicolor next to a true solid black
by the time they're ready to leave the breeder at 8 or so weeks old.
My wee pup at over 4 months now is still staying so nice & black (both her mask
& her mantle) she actually more favors a bicolor--well for now anyhow. Too bad
she's not indeed a bicolor- that's my favorite pattern! I could about care
less what the ground color is on a bicolor, but I can say it is striking as
well when their lower legs & eyebrows are dark tan or red... I was on the fence
with her pattern for registration but then I saw tan hairs on her head here 'n
there between her ears. Boo-hoo!!!
I'm not quite as finicky on the intensity series results as I am in wanting a
dog with a dark dark mask and a large mantle regardless of their pattern.
With my favorite pattern being bicolor, I'd want one who is quite mostly
black/considered dark for a bicolor. I tried for one this litter as daddy's a
b/t dark saddle who's a bicolor carrier and mommy's a b/t who's a solid black
carrier. Of course there were 6 saddled puppies despite the odds there should
have been 2 who weren't saddles. Oh well at least odds & statistics came out
that there was 3 boys & 3 girls. The one time I wanted most all of one sex
(girls) I got the perfectly balanced litter. Aaaah it worked out just right
anyhow; every puppy went to a wonderful home and all but 1 had previous GSDs
and the one who didn't had a Rottweiler that died of cancer at 11 so I figured
they might manage one of my pups! I even think I got a pretty nice puppy even
if she's an extended saddle...
Thanks for listening to my humble opinions on color genetics and one more--
(had to learn myself since I like having black carrier dogs (if not
epistatically solid black in my whites) in my breeding program. It usually
guarantees more than one pattern in my litters. They're more interesting that
way I just happen to think coming in more than one pattern/look. It's always an
interesting result when a white is bred into a colored line where he/she
happens to be, if a gene for color were added, a solid black dog, and better
yet a coat carrier as well as having the genes for both white and for solid
black....: then the colored model gets test bred for everything regarding coat
type: what it's recessive carrier pattern is from any other patterned pups
than that parent displays them self; if it carries for long coat, by having a
coated pup or 2 start growing in after they're 2 weeks or so along (I
personally wouldn't want that white parent to be a long coat themselves-- then
if the colored parent was a carrier as well, theoretically, half the litter
would be long coats. Too much for me even though I do admire them.), and is
also tested for any white carrier status. Really fun is when there's 3
different colors/patterns in the litter: white, and whatever the
non-genetically-black parent has at their agouti alleles.
Sorry so long!!
Jen P & the Pack who also has a good idea about the AKC registration process
regarding color & pattern. We should identify the dogs in our breed so much
more accurately than we do! But that's another tangent... :-)
JayDee's Proud-Haus Shepherds/Proud K911
www.jaydeesphs.com
Committed to the Total Dog you can be Proud of!!!
AKC Breeder of Merit
On Sep 14, 2013, at 12:04 PM, "Penny & Bill" <Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Personally I don't favor the red color. But breeding to a black will always
> enhance pigment. (Also a bi-color. Izzy is a bi and her pups are ALL very
> dark black and tans and sables.) When I bred blacks exclusively in the 80s,
> it seemed that each generation got blacker and shinier. Some shone in the
> sun like patent leather.
>
> Penny in NC
> The Farm Dog Forever.
>
> From: Sarah Minsk
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: We have answers, but not from me
>
>
> But not red, huh.Hmm. One breeder told me when she wants to improve pigment
> (red color) she breeds to black dogs. So, now I am confused!!! Not the first
> time and won't be the last!
>
> How do dogs get so red then versus tan?
>
> I can only stay online for a little while as sunset and Yom Kippur is
> approaching...so please don't be offended if I don't come online again until
> Sunday.
>
> Thanks,
> Sarah
>
>
>
============================================================================
POST is Copyrighted 2012. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
SUBSCRIPTION:http://showgsd.org/mail.html
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
============================================================================
Other related posts:
