[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: We have answers, but not from me maybe

  • From: Jen Proud <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: "Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:23:22 -0500

I'm sorry but I must say I don't 100% agree with ya Penny though I often do 
share your opinions across the topics!
While I do agree that breeding just for blacks doing black to black or black 
carrier breedings, the black does get better with each successive generation 
and often loses any "bleed-through" unless it's stamped into the line 
thoroughly or a paled black carrier parent is used. 
However, to improve/if i could only say "control"(!!) coat pigment, it's 3 
separate modifiers beyond the expression of color or the epistatic gene for 
white. First, there is a modifier related to the amount of black that will 
appear on the mask/face, a second that will affect how black the mantle (from 
the neck to the tail) is, and the third, what is called the "Intensity" gene 
which controls the ground (non-black) color; it is commonly believed (my 
humblest of opinions included) that the highest intensity=red is also the most 
recessive.  Though not all these genes will appear in all patterns/colors 
(white included with black, bi & the rest!) due to, say a black dog, being 
solid colored the mask & mantle coverage doesn't show up, and possibly the 
intensity genes may be expressed enough to tell the ground color if the black 
dog has some "bleed-through". In a white, if they would otherwise be a rich tan 
or red ground colored dog if they had a colored gene to express, you can often 
get an idea of how much mask/mantle they have, since for some unknown reason, 
an otherwise black/red epistatically white dog will have 
cream,tan,orange,biscuit,whatever one wants to call it(!!!)- but technically 
phaeomelanin  in the areas they would be black/eumelanin if they instead had a 
gene or two to display their color instead of the white.  How do the two 
pigments flip flop places in richly colored white dogs?  Pigment is considered 
a completely separate thing than in colored GSDs- pigment in whites refers to 
the pigment quality of the skin- how dark or black does the nose stay- black 
lips, eye rims, paw pads, preferably any showing skin (places hair is thin) 
such as ear inners, muzzle, testicles, belly etc being grey to black is 
preferable, and the darker the more desirable. I must say that black skin 
pigment looks rather interesting on a grey sable dog! ;). The whites considered 
to have the best pigment are the ones black enough to have black pigmented 
toenails- like I mean solid black just as in our colored dogs. Many pups will 
have grey stripes down the top center of their toenails, which is good, but 
black toenails is about perfection, as the rest is generally pitch black before 
the nails are affected like that. 
In all pattern models, a cream/tan ground colored dog can produce a red, but 2 
reds bred together generally don't produce anything lighter than tan, if even 
anything other than reds.  I personally think the intensity series is polygenic 
and acts in a threshold manner. That would explain how a cream/silver can 
produce rich tan/red in her colored puppies. It would also explain how many 
black/tan to black/tan (just think color on the intensity series and forget 
pattern for a moment. This applies to all, even the solids) breedings produce 
litters with everything from black/red to black/silver in color. 
For the mantle portion, I can't truly say how it is inherited. I would like to 
say that more black is dominant, but I'm not sure on that one. I know 2 dogs 
both with dark mantles bred together produce pups with all nice large mantles. 
Even the lightest of the bunch still has a nice large saddle connecting up his 
whole neck and down his entire tail with the extra black for the ink-dipped 
tip! ;) though it doesn't extend down onto his belly/legs as it does in his 
darker siblings.  2/3 of that litter was real dark both mantle (both parents) 
and mask (daddy), 1/6 had a dark mantle and a middle dark mask (more similar to 
mom & her siblings), 1/6 had a lighter mask than both parents (being similar to 
daddy's daddy instead). Both parents were black/tan saddles; but there were 2 
red puppies and the other 4 were tan, varying from a lighter golden tan to the 
darker brownish rich tan with red in patches (like on head, hocks, and the 
like). That would suggest that in both the mask and the mantle modifiers, 
darker is dominant. 
Again, the gene series controlling the mantle reaches across all patterns, from 
the obvious in sables & saddles; to in bi-colors where sometimes they're so tan 
(or whatever) with a very small mantle they could be mistaken for a very dark 
saddle, and sometimes they're so dark with a heavy mantle that only the bottoms 
of their legs have any color on them... Both are genetic bicolors, it's just 
that mantle-sizing gene/s at work. The latter example of the bicolor dog could 
be mistaken for a genetic black who has small mantle modifiers and ends up with 
a bunch of bleed-through, where the blacks with a heavy mantle are the ones 
that start out black black and stay that way. No white blotches, no tan in 
their toes. It seems the trick to knowing the difference of if its a black or a 
bi is knowing the dog from a puppy(or someone who does) since the bleed-through 
blacks will start out all black and not grow color in until they shed out a 
time or three while a bicolor is an obvious bicolor next to a true solid black 
by the time they're ready to leave the breeder at 8 or so weeks old. 
My wee pup at over 4 months now is still staying so nice & black (both her mask 
& her mantle) she actually more favors a bicolor--well for now anyhow.  Too bad 
she's not indeed a bicolor- that's my favorite pattern!  I could about care 
less what the ground color is on a bicolor, but I can say it is striking as 
well when their lower legs & eyebrows are dark tan or red... I was on the fence 
with her pattern for registration but then I saw tan hairs on her head here 'n 
there between her ears.  Boo-hoo!!!
I'm not quite as finicky on the intensity series results as I am in wanting a 
dog with a dark dark mask and a large mantle regardless of their pattern. 
With my favorite pattern being bicolor,  I'd want one who is quite mostly 
black/considered dark for a bicolor. I tried for one this litter as daddy's a 
b/t dark saddle who's a bicolor carrier and mommy's a b/t who's a solid black 
carrier. Of course there were 6 saddled puppies despite the odds there should 
have been 2 who weren't saddles. Oh well at least odds & statistics came out 
that there was 3 boys & 3 girls. The one time I wanted most all of one sex 
(girls) I got the perfectly balanced litter. Aaaah it worked out just right 
anyhow; every puppy went to a wonderful home and all but 1 had previous GSDs 
and the one who didn't had a Rottweiler that died of cancer at 11 so I figured 
they might manage one of my pups!  I even think I got a pretty nice puppy even 
if she's an extended saddle...
Thanks for listening to my humble opinions on color genetics and one more-- 
(had to learn myself since I like having black carrier dogs (if not 
epistatically solid black in my whites) in my breeding program. It usually 
guarantees more than one pattern in my litters. They're more interesting that 
way I just happen to think coming in more than one pattern/look. It's always an 
interesting result when a white is bred into a colored line where he/she 
happens to be, if a gene for color were added, a solid black dog, and better 
yet a coat carrier as well as having the genes for both white and for solid 
black....:  then the colored model gets test bred for everything regarding coat 
type:  what it's recessive carrier pattern is from any other patterned pups 
than that parent displays them self; if it carries for long coat, by having a 
coated pup or 2 start growing in after they're 2 weeks or so along (I 
personally wouldn't want that white parent to be a long coat themselves-- then 
if the colored parent was a carrier as well, theoretically, half the litter 
would be long coats. Too much for me even though I do admire them.), and is 
also tested for any white carrier status. Really fun is when there's 3 
different colors/patterns in the litter: white, and whatever the 
non-genetically-black parent has at their agouti alleles.
Sorry so long!!

Jen P & the Pack who also has a good idea about the AKC registration process 
regarding color & pattern. We should identify the dogs in our breed so much 
more accurately than we do!  But that's another tangent... :-)

JayDee's Proud-Haus Shepherds/Proud K911
Committed to the Total Dog you can be Proud of!!!
AKC Breeder of Merit

On Sep 14, 2013, at 12:04 PM, "Penny & Bill" <Ketchy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Personally I don't favor the red color.  But breeding to a black will always 
> enhance pigment.  (Also a bi-color.  Izzy is a bi and her pups are ALL very 
> dark black and tans and sables.)  When I bred blacks exclusively in the 80s, 
> it seemed that each generation got blacker and shinier.  Some shone in the 
> sun like patent leather.
> Penny in NC
> The Farm Dog Forever.
> From: Sarah Minsk 
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: We have answers, but not from me
> But not red, huh.Hmm. One breeder told me when she wants to improve pigment 
> (red color) she breeds to black dogs. So, now I am confused!!! Not the first 
> time and won't be the last!
> How do dogs get so red then versus tan?
> I can only stay online for a little while as sunset and Yom Kippur is 
> approaching...so please don't be offended if I don't come online again until 
> Sunday.
> Thanks,
> Sarah

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