In a message dated 1/4/2007 5:41:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, helen@xxxxxxxxxxx writes: Barb was spot on about the temperament way back then and how careful we were slaping a friend on the back or reaching suddenly. The dogs were tougher and the handlers used care. When I read Kate's original question, I wasn't sure how to interpret "tough". "Tough" temperament? "Tough to handle" (since she references majors) as in going too hard, being a real bundle of energy?? As for a dog you have to be wary about reaching for something/someone suddenly, IMO, if they react badly to that they either (a) have a screw loose or (b) have no confidence in their person's ability to lead, so to speak. The first would take a one way trip to the vets and the second would learn real quick they didn't have to lead. Had a puppy customer call all puffed up with importance, proud that his youngster would go out in front of him on walks and bark at strangers. Thought he was "protecting" him. No, I said, he's disrespecting you. What??? Of course. He doesn't feel like you're in charge, so he needs to be. (And the customer was told in no uncertain terms to stop it now!) I wouldn't tolerate it. Justin wouldn't be more than inches from my 2 1/2 year old nephew New Year's Day and was CONSTANTLY underfoot, in the way. By accident, dad stepped on his foot. He yelped, but he certainly wouldn't have dreamed of biting. What did you do with these so called "tough" dogs if someone stepped on them? Or did you have to put them up when company came? I've had judges and children alike fall on my dogs. (The judges tripped over indoor matting.) Use care? IMO, they shouldn't have to. I expect my dogs to be intelligent enough to DISCRIMINATE between foe and an anomaly. What did you do with these so called "tough" dogs that you couldn't make quick motions around when there was a learning or physically impaired child or adult around with the accompanying unusual (to them) movements? I guess they didn't make good therapy dogs and I'm sure they didn't get to go to schools. Males that are male aggressive with the excuse that they are looking for a girl? No, no, and no. Can't/won't tolerate a dog aggressive dog either, and libido isn't measured by that nonsense. Remember, GSDs were the original utilitarian family farm and herding dog, later war dogs. How long do you think a sheep farmer would tolerate a dog that wanted to fight? (My intact males herd with other intact males, and you don't have to ask them twice to breed a bitch. Two different activities.) What good would a messenger dog be in a war if he was to stop and fight with another dog along the way? Now, in the show world, we do have a lot of dogs that are frequently kenneled, have little to no interaction with their own kind and are sorely lacking doggie social skills. That's a problem IMO created by the (really false) environment some folks create for their dogs, and it's often made worse by allowing dogs that are kenneled to fence run/fight, but even if the aggression towards other dogs can be partially blamed on the environment created for the dog, I still can't tolerate it. Posturing in the ring? What next, sparring like terriers? But back to Kate's question. I've had more than my share that were tough to handle in that they had wwwaaaayyyyyy more energy than they needed. Those got up very early in the AM the day of the show and exercised for a few hours running the hills and chasing chipmunks to work off some of their "badness". Of course, I'd have to hide and not double either! Kathy member GSDCA, DVGSDC three generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions live here! visit _Pine Hill German Shepherd Dogs_ (http://www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds/) ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================